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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 28 January 2015 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | 1
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There is a common fan belief that Superman does not have a "rogues gallery" on the same level as Batman, Spider-Man, or the Flash (or extending it to a group book, the Fantastic Four). As both a fan and a writer/artist, what are your thoughts on Superman's villains and what do you think makes a good Superman villain?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132282
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Posted: 28 January 2015 at 2:35pm | IP Logged | 2
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Supermna's rogues gallery has traditionally included Luthor, Brainiac, Mxyzptlk, Metallo, Terra Man, the Parasite, various nefarious Kryptonians and a host of others. I'm not sure exactly what is meant by these guys (and gals) not being on "the same level" as Batman's baddies. Seems to me that all a villain needs to rate is to be able to give the hero a hard time for the length of a story.
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Jason Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2473
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Posted: 28 January 2015 at 3:35pm | IP Logged | 3
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"On the same level" meaning "as interesting or as inspired as creations," I guess.
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Brian O'Neill Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 November 2013 Location: United States Posts: 1964
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Posted: 28 January 2015 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | 4
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The 'interesting and inspired' reputation of Batman's 'rogues gallery' came, in part, from the iconic portrayals of those characters in the TV show. Only a handful of Superman's villains(especially in the post-Weisinger, pre-CRISIS era) crossed over into other media(Luthor, Bizarro, the second Toyman, and-I think-Brainiac, as part of the Legion of Doom on CHALLENGE OF THE SUPERFRIENDS). As far as the comics are concerned, I've mentioned in other threads my opinion of Martin Pasko's writing, as opposed to Cary Bates. Pasko was, better at action-oriented supervillain stories, while Bates, IMO, relied on 'softer', science-fiction oriented plots. When he did use villains, they didn't have as much of an 'edge' as they did under Pasko's control. Pasko could make guys like Terra-Man or Vartox interesting. Under Bates, they were merely the pale imitations of the celebrities they were parodying.
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 28 January 2015 at 4:57pm | IP Logged | 5
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Thanks, JB, for the response!
I think Superman's villains -- like himself -- tend to not work as well in a "grim and gritty" setting, which over the past 20 years became the default expectation for a "good" villain. When I read Snyder's Joker stories, for example, I see a character who resembles the Joker of the 1950s in name only.
The comics tried this with Superman villains but it never quite worked. Remember when the Toyman became a deranged child killer?
The Toyman and the Prankster torturing Pete Ross to death to learn Superman's secret in "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" was a hint that something was wrong. These villains would never behave this way. That doesn't have to mean they're "jokes." It just means that not every villain is a Criminal Minds un-sub.
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2292
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Posted: 28 January 2015 at 8:01pm | IP Logged | 6
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Superman has a good Rogues Gallery, but unlike Batman's or the Flash's, they were never really SOLD well!
I can point out a number of BATMAN and FLASH covers and stories where ALL the villains team up or are otherwise shown together. Spider-Man's villains teamed up as the Sinister Six early on and that team, apparently, is even getting its own MOVIE soon!
Spider-Man and Batman's rogues have been translated into various media and have really been driven into the American psyche. For Superman, all the general public really seems to know is Luthor. (With Zod making a second appearance only because the Hollywood types remembered him from SUPERMAN 2.) The George Reeves show never had any super-villains. The LOIS AND CLARK show had Luthor in every episode, but I think only Sherman Hemsley showed up once as the Toyman. On SMALLVILLE, a lot of the villains showed up, but never in any recognizable way.
When I was a kid in the 70's, the Maggin/Bates & Swan team did a really good job of letting me know exactly who Superman's villains were--Luthor, Brainiac, Mr. Mxyzptlk, Metallo, Bizarro, Toy Man, Parasite, Terra-Man, Kryptonite Boy/Man, General Zod and the Phantom Zoners, and even Vartox and the new Blackrock. I don't remember the Prankster ever making a modern appearance, but I think he could be thrown in there too.
That's really not a bad line-up. Unfortunately, most of those have been retired or completely altered at this point, leaving Superman without a strong Rogues Gallery for decades now.
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Doug Centers Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 February 2014 Location: United States Posts: 5467
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Posted: 28 January 2015 at 8:28pm | IP Logged | 7
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This was one of my favorite issues and always stuck with me.
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4548
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Posted: 28 January 2015 at 8:32pm | IP Logged | 8
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Brian O'Neill wrote:
Pasko could make guys like Terra-Man or Vartox interesting. Under Bates, they were merely the pale imitations of the celebrities they were parodying. |
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I don't recall Pasko ever writing a story with either of those villains. Or are you just intending to say that he could have made them interesting if he'd used them?
I agree with your comments about the distinction between Bates and Pasko, though I will say that I liked both approaches. Pasko was more action oriented, and put Superman in situations where he was physically challenged. Bates was more plot-driven, and a throwback to the Weisinger approach: he had Superman encounter a problem, and the story was about Superman solving the problem.
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 28 January 2015 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | 9
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The 70's-era creators tried to expand Superman's gallery of rogues to include the Sand Superman and Galactic Golem as well as Chemo (borrowed from the Metal Men in much the same way Batman borrowed the Gentleman Ghost from Hawkman or Spider-Man borrowed Jack O'Lantern from Machine Man) and J. Wilbur Wolfingham from Superman's Golden Age. Of the latter day additions to the Bronze Age Superman's villains, only Mongul really stuck and of course, post-Crisis, was compromised almost immediately by writers who didn't and don't understand the value of a continuing menace.
One of my favorites was this issue, which had a nifty twist to the story...
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132282
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Posted: 28 January 2015 at 9:23pm | IP Logged | 10
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One of my favorites was this issue, which had a nifty twist to the story...••• Haven't read that issue, but my Silver Age sensibilities would guess it is Superman who is "the most shocking foe of all," and the one quitting is a robot.
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Ray Brady Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3740
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Posted: 28 January 2015 at 9:33pm | IP Logged | 11
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Based purely on memory, I would guess that Superman's villains weren't nearly as prevalent in his earlier stories as Batman's or the Flash's. My recollection of Flash stories from the 50s and 60s was that almost every single issue featured a costumed villain, usually one of the major rogues. Even when Batman was going through his alien-of-the-month phase, it seems like each of his major baddies would make an appearance once a year or so.
With Superman, I remember a lot more stories that didn't have villains at all. It seems like most of his stories were about Lois getting super-powers, or discovering another lost survivor of Krypton, or Jimmy getting super-powers, or Superman's Big Brother, or Lois scheming to uncover his secret identity, or an "imaginary story". Looking at the covers of Superman comics from the 50s and 60s, it's hard to even spot Luthor or Brainiac amid the forest of one-shot foils.
I don't think the problem is that Superman's villains are less inherently interesting than anyone else's. I just don't think they got used often enough to make them as memorable.
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 28 January 2015 at 10:12pm | IP Logged | 12
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Very close indeed, JB, but the Superman quitting is not a robot.
INVISO TEXT (Click or highlight to reveal):
He's Superman's cousin Don-El who's suffered a mental breakdown and believes he's Superman. The foes he fights in rapid succession are all Superman in disguise, so we get to see Superman as Terra-Man and Superman as Bizarro, et al. |
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Regarding the use of villains, Superman stories of the late Golden and Silver ages were more often than not puzzle stories, presenting a problem for Superman (and thereby the reader) to try to figure out rather than concerning themselves with character conflict, drama, knock-down, drag-out brawls or high-flying action. There was a great deal of imagination and story invention with new supporting characters, devices, and what not, but little in the way of emotional involvement or character-motivated drama.
In such stories, there isn't much for the villain to do when the main problems are usually the result of Lois' scheming or Jimmy's bumbling. Also, aside from the Luthor-Brainiac team or the occasional Prankster and Toyman combo, Superman's villains didn't socialize much. For organized wickedness, there was the Superman Revenge Squad and later, "The 100," "Skull," and "HIVE."
A brief assemblage of Superman foes appeared in issues #417 and #418, including Grax (A Jim Shooter created foe with a 20th-level intellect who treated Brainiac like a moron), Luthor (in a seldom seen gray, black, and orange costume), Brainiac, and the Marauder.
Edited by Brian Hague on 28 January 2015 at 10:13pm
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