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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2178
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| Posted: 26 February 2015 at 9:16pm | IP Logged | 1
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I think that whole set of rules unnecessarily and excessively hamstrings the artist. Even the "bad" things that Alex Toth points out in his famous review of Steve Rude's work can occasionally be useful, if used with some thought. "Bad" practices or just unusual practices I think of as specialty tools that you drag out when the situation can benefit from them.For instance, I've found that (once in a while) what can help drive a story is by not feeling compelled to fill the page in it's entirety with art. The panels don't as such need to fit the page perfectly, or even fill out the page. The expanded gutter space can be used for a pretty strong effect depending on what's going on in the story. Deviations from a normal panel layout can reinforce what's going on in both the normal panels and the ones that deviate. I.e., like Eisner intimated, you can communicate part of the story with just the panel layout. |
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J W Campbell
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 June 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 353
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| Posted: 27 February 2015 at 3:09am | IP Logged | 2
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Conread Teves wrote:
| I think that whole set of rules unnecessarily and excessively hamstrings the artist. |
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I think it's worth remembering that the guidelines were being sent out to new artists looking to make their first submissions. Yes, any rule can be broken to specific effect, but if a commissioning editor wants prospective artists to concentrate on making sure what's drawn inside the panels is drawn well, and that their page layouts are clear and easy to follow, I think they're entitled to do so.
Also: if you send out a set of guidelines for a new artist to follow, it will tell you a lot about what it will be like to work with them if the submission that comes back doesn't follow those guidelines.
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Darren Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 5994
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| Posted: 27 February 2015 at 5:38am | IP Logged | 3
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Out of the last 10 Production companies I have worked for, seven have provided 'Bible's, Refs and "Do's & Don'ts". You see these almost all the time. When I was presented with the above list, I had ZERO professional experience, so these were sent, as I said above, as a guide.
I recall Alan Davis once saying that when he got his first gig, he had no idea that comics weren't drawn -at- the size they were printed. His first Captain Britain work was done on A4 to the print dimensions as a result.
So a new artist coming on board may need to be brought up to speed an -anything-. Guides are very helpful.
Here though, I found it a tad sad to read as, comics today, in the most part, seem to care less about the readers experience and -that- (back then) seems to be the core element that this guide is striving to protect from any shady comprehension on the part of the new artist.
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Darren Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 5994
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| Posted: 27 February 2015 at 5:49am | IP Logged | 4
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---Or did the colorist or separator come to a line and STOP? Ignoring the context of that line?---JB
That -has- to be super frustrating. I see that a lot. In fact, this one I just discovered a few days ago, from a piece of Alan Davis' artwork I hadn't seen before.
The Thing's forearm and knuckle of the (Sentinal?---I suggest that knowing it to be wrong) Thumb have been confused.
Quick 5 second patch and the result---
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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2178
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| Posted: 27 February 2015 at 6:07am | IP Logged | 5
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If you are being hired to do something specific, obviously you should do that, but that said, I still think the chosen rules are overly restrictive.
Sometimes you don't have a choice though. I did a piece where the client wanted something that, while not impossible, was extremely unlikely in a perspective shot. Totally grated against my artistic sensibilities. I did it, though. And got m' check!
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15817
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| Posted: 27 February 2015 at 6:41am | IP Logged | 6
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That Alan Davis knows how to draw!
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J W Campbell
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 June 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 353
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| Posted: 27 February 2015 at 8:11am | IP Logged | 7
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Darren Taylor wrote:
| So a new artist coming on board may need to be brought up to speed an -anything-. Guides are very helpful. |
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I'll confess to mild surprise that John didn't include "First speaker on the left" in there. These days plenty of artists look at you like just suggested they eat a dog sh*t sandwich when you mention this 'rule' to them…
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 27 February 2015 at 8:29am | IP Logged | 8
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There are some rules that seem like they should be so obvious they don't need to be rules. Leave enough space for copy.* First speaker should be on the left side of the panel (unless there is some reason for him/her not to be). Avoid awkward cropping and overlapping. ___________________ * This one, in the case of working from a full script, means also paying attention to how much copy there is in each panel. In my final years at Marvel, I did some full scripts, just to make things quicker and easier for the editor. The reverse was often true, when artists made panels that were light on copy LARGE, and panels that were heavy on copy small.
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J W Campbell
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 27 February 2015 at 8:43am | IP Logged | 9
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John Byrne wrote:
| The reverse was often true, when artists made panels that were light on copy LARGE, and panels that were heavy on copy small. |
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And this is why I drink… :-)
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Jack Bohn
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Joined: 13 July 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 747
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| Posted: 27 February 2015 at 11:11am | IP Logged | 10
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Were these full scripts for you, or another artist? Any way to write them without making the artist feel like an art robot? Have you ever been in the position of writing (plot or full script) without knowing who was going to draw it?
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Jens Tenhaeff
Byrne Robotics Member
Alpha Flight Fan
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 47
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| Posted: 24 April 2015 at 3:03am | IP Logged | 11
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JB wrote:
1. Wrong 2. Wrong 3. Wrong 4. Wrong 5. Right. I normally tell wannabe artists to arbitrarily "kill" the top quarter to a third of every panel. Don't put anything important there. (I learned this the hard way -- working with Chris Claremont!) 6. Drawing, yes. Placement, no. 7. Duh! 8. There is an important phrase missing here: "when possible." Far too many writers do not think in pictures. I have often described scripts in which impossible actions (real movement, for instance) or angles (basically, looking in more than one direction at once) or character positions (dialog does not consider the position of the characters in previous and subsequent panels) are asked for. Most often, such scripts are written by people who think they are screenwriters. 9. Duh! |
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While I agree that this list is unnecessarily restricting on accomplished artists, I still think it's a good rule of thumb for newcomers (at which this list was addressed). I subscribe to the "You-gotta-know-the-rules-before-you-can-break-them" school of thought and if the notion behind those rules had been more prevalent in the 90s we might have suffered a less severe IMAGEfication of comics during that decade.
Edited by Jens Tenhaeff on 24 April 2015 at 3:13am
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Daniel Gillotte
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2595
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| Posted: 24 April 2015 at 9:14am | IP Logged | 12
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I've always thought of both Buscemas as excellent storytellers and am surprised to see them in a "don't" example.
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