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Topic: Iceman to be outed (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Andrew W. Farago
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Posted: 22 April 2015 at 7:07pm | IP Logged | 1  

Rachel Edidin wrote a thoughtful piece on this at Playboy.com, which we all read for the articles.
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Rick Whiting
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Posted: 22 April 2015 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | 2  

Has Bobby Drake had any really long-term/serious relationships? He and Hank McCoy double-dated with Zelda and Vera, he briefly dated Polaris, then you skip ahead to Cloud in the Defenders, Opal Tanaka in X-Factor...never anything that seemed to last very long or be a big part of his life.

In our world, there have been any number of celebrities who have come out decades after it could have adversely affected their careers (Barry Manilow, Jim Nabors, George Takei, just to name a few), and I've got any number of friends with family members who came out of the closet after years of marriage, sometimes with multiple kids. Sometimes they were in complete denial, sometimes they'd done what they thought they had to do...it's not something that's completely without precedent.

________________________


Andrew, you can't apply those type of real world rules to fictional straight characters who have had their thoughts and feelings revealed to the readers on the printed page,who ere obviously intended to be straight from the beginning (and haven't said otherwise) by their creators,and whose short term romantic relationships may be due to creative reasons that have nothing to due with him being gay or bi. In other words, you and some other fans are looking for and trying to apply real world reasoning to justify something that is most likely due to creative reasons.
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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 22 April 2015 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | 3  


Too many fans seem to think the signs were there all along. The character hasn't been hiding his homosexuality. He hasn't been outed. He hasn't come out of the closet.

He's been MADE gay. By the current writers. On a whim.

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 22 April 2015 at 8:57pm | IP Logged | 4  


 QUOTE:
He and Hank McCoy double-dated with Zelda and Vera, he briefly dated Polaris, then you skip ahead to Cloud in the Defenders, Opal Tanaka in X-Factor...never anything that seemed to last very long or be a big part of his life.

Bobby and Opal's issues seemed to be external. Her grandfather was a crimelord. His father was a bit racist. Nothing about their relationship would be an indication that Bobby wasn't committed fully because he was gay, unless you want to go with that stereotype about closeted gay guys dating Asian women.


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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 22 April 2015 at 9:03pm | IP Logged | 5  

Rachel Edidin wrote a thoughtful piece on this at Playboy.com, which we all read for the articles.

-----


 QUOTE:
The first set of responses came from a crowd that is mortally offended that Bendis has “made” an existing character gay, and they deserve the least attention of the lot. People come out as adults — including older adults — all the time. When you live in a society that treats heterosexuality as the norm and varyingly violently stigmatizes deviation from that norm, the pressure toward not only secrecy but denial is incredibly high.

Also, hiding your homophobia behind a veneer of cherry-picked concern for (alreadyconvoluted and self-contradictory) continuity is odious, and it makes the rest of us continuity wonks look bad. Don’t do that.

Making a blanket accusation of homophobia is thoughtful?

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Paul Kimball
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Posted: 22 April 2015 at 11:19pm | IP Logged | 6  

He's a fictional character. He can be whatever the writer wants. He can also
be changed back later by a different writer. I have more problem with Scott
Summers being turned into a terrorist myself but as someone on this site
likes to say, your mileage may vary.
Not defending or attacking, just saying.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 22 April 2015 at 11:36pm | IP Logged | 7  

I have more problem with Scott Summers being turned into a terrorist myself but as someone on this site likes to say, your mileage may vary. 

----

There are several ways of undoing Scott's misdeeds of the past few years. Changing a gay character straight has broader implications beyond continuity.


Edited by Michael Roberts on 22 April 2015 at 11:36pm
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 12:23am | IP Logged | 8  

Yeah, Iceman was not only smitten with Polaris, he was almost stalker-ish for a bit there!

I'm a believer in "Quality wins!"  This means (to me) that comics creators can only change things that have been established if the work they're doing is of a (generally accepted) higher quality than the older work they're changing.  For example, that means that the Denny O'Neil/Neal Adams Batman is THE Batman to me!  The Steve Englehart/Marshall Rogers version is right up there too, but the two versions don't disagree, so I have no problem loving both.

If Brian Michael Bendis and modern Marvel are retconning something so core to one of their flagship characters and wiping out something that Roy Thomas and Neal Adams established in their seminal X-MEN work (Bobby Drake was a teenage boy who liked a girl almost to an extreme level), that tells me that they think what they're doing is better than what Thomas and Adams did.

And it's not.
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Andrew W. Farago
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 1:18am | IP Logged | 9  

that tells me that they think what they're doing is better than what Thomas and Adams did.

By that logic, why were any characters continued after Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko left Marvel?  Why make any changes at all to the characters after 1968?  Any time you change a character's costume, or add a new supporting character to the supporting cast, or change some detail of the character's origin...any change like that at all is strictly because you've got no respect for what happened before, or because you think you're better than other people who worked on a book before you.  Got it.
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Andy Mokler
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 1:30am | IP Logged | 10  

How much should characters change?  On the one hand, it took a little time for Batman, Superman, etc. to evolve(change) into what we know them as.  
I'm not sure what to think.  The Simpsons seem to have "evolved" but essentially remained what they were introduced as.  Which seems like the best way.

But, should Dick Grayson forever remain a 12 year old?  

What's the grace period for "finding" the character?

The best I've come up with is that a character should essentially remain what they are when introduced.  You can look back on what they did before that point but aging characters is too slippery a slope.

Changing their sexuality after 50+ years seems an obvious no-no.
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 2:26am | IP Logged | 11  

Andrew, there's a difference between CONTINUING a character's story and RETCONNING it.  Thomas and Adams continued the story of Bobby Drake that Lee and Kirby started.  As an older teenager, Bobby did not really handle the whole Polaris/Havok thing well and he acted petulant...just like an actual teenage boy might!  It did not INVALIDATE the Bobby that Lee and Kirby gave us.  And Byrne and Claremont continued ALL the X-Men's stories--what they did did not DISAGREE or INVALIDATE anything that had come before.

...EXCEPT they (and Cockrum) completely changed Banshee's face and personality!  The QUALITY of the updated Banshee was frankly better than the old version, so, yes, that was okay with me.


Edited by Eric Jansen on 23 April 2015 at 3:00am
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 23 April 2015 at 4:24am | IP Logged | 12  

Wow, Marvel. All this talk about Iceman makes me excited for X-Men Apocalypse movie in 2016. And I can't quite remember which movie I'm supposed to see next week. Go Marvel! 
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