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Bob Harvey
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 November 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 214
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| Posted: 24 April 2015 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | 1
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That's funny; I had Kip and Taavi's dialogue in my head earlier afternoon. I was even trying to decide if the disavowal came in the same issue as the introduction.
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4067
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| Posted: 24 April 2015 at 3:43pm | IP Logged | 2
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Times are changing, and quickly. Given the timing, it's entirely possible that Grant Morrison was given permission to out Hank by his editor and that someone higher up very quickly put a stop to it.
A bit more than a decade later, Marvel would get eviscerated if they tried to undo this development with Iceman, who's been out for all of three days.
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2188
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| Posted: 24 April 2015 at 4:42pm | IP Logged | 3
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A bit more than a decade later, Marvel would get eviscerated if they tried to undo this development with Iceman, who's been out for all of three days.
A bit more than a decade later, Marvel would get eviscerated if they tried to undo this development with Iceman, who's been out for all of three days.
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This is very true. However, if Marvel decides to let Iceman fade into limbo and don't use him for a years, then they could reverse it without little or no fanfare from the mainstream news media and social media. And they won't hesitate to do it if sales of the X-Men comics dropped as a result of this retcon. Speaking of straight Marvel characters that were retconned into being LGBT characters, notice how those retconned LGBT characters have faded into limbo after they were retconned into being LGBT and their books were canceled.
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4067
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| Posted: 24 April 2015 at 5:10pm | IP Logged | 4
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Marvel's more PR-savvy now than they were a decade ago, or even five years ago. There's no good publicity to be gained by revealing that Iceman was actually straight all along and that this was some trick to infiltrate a gay mutant gang, and with the changing demographics of comic book readership, this is going to gain more readers than it's going to lose.
If Marvel announces an Iceman solo comic this fall, it's automatically going to get some attention. Without this announcement, it would quietly run for about a year before limping into cancellation, the same fate that befalls most solo X-books not starring Wolverine.
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2188
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| Posted: 24 April 2015 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | 5
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Andrew, if you think that this retcon will gain more readers, I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. An Iceman solo comic won't sell whether he is straight or gay. The mainstrem news media attention that Batwoman got for being a lesbian hasn't kept that book selling well. The retcon of Rictot and Shatterstar into being bi in X-Factor didn't boost sales on that book. The gay Rawhide Kid book (which got huge mainstream news media attention) sold poorly and the character (as far as I know) hasn't been used since that mini series.
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
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| Posted: 24 April 2015 at 5:29pm | IP Logged | 6
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Here's Axel Alonso's comments about Iceman being "outed".
http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/axel-in-charge-beh ind-the-scenes-on-icemans-outing-1872-changes
<<<<Let's get into what's become the big news of the week -- Jean Grey outing Iceman in "All-New X-Men" #40. A lot has been said about it already, but I'm curious to hear your reaction from when it was first pitched to you. You worked on the X-Men books as group editor for several years, and there's long been speculation among fans about Iceman's sexual orientation. What was your initial reaction when the story was brought to you?
Alonso: I was in a "Star Wars" story meeting in San Francisco when I got a call from [then-X-Men editor] Mike Marts, who said there was an "All-New X-Men" script in my inbox that I needed to read. So I read the script, and when I got to the scene with Bobby, I knew why Mike had sent it to me. I thought it was a very well written scene, but it wasn't something I'd ever discussed with Brian, so I needed to know more.
Let's just say Brian wasn't surprised to get a call from me! [Laughs] He told me that he'd been thinking about Bobby for a while, and rather than pitch his idea to us, he thought it best to just write the scene and let it speak for itself -- if it worked out, great; if not, back to the drawing board. I thought the scene was very sensitive, very elegant, and I'm a former X-Men group editor so I'm aware of the buzz around Bobby -- both the Internet speculation and the small signs in past stories that indicated Bobby was dealing with something -- so this moment didn't come from out of nowhere. When I consulted with other editors, it became apparent that it wasn't inconsistent with a character we'd built up over decades.
Of course, we realized that if young Bobby were to come to this moment of clarity there would be ramifications for adult Bobby. So we talked about that, and we agreed what they would be, and Brian will deal with them when he drops the mic with "Uncanny X-Men" #600. I'm very excited about the stories ahead.
As you mentioned, there has been a "buzz" and speculation surrounding the character in the past. During your time as X-Men group editor, were there ever any discussions of this nature internally about Iceman, or was this the first time it took traction within Marvel?
Alonso: The fact that Bobby might be gay was something that came up in conversation, but it wasn't anything we actively pursued. And we never, ever had any discussions where we said, "Let's make Iceman gay." It was just something that Brian pondered for a while, and did so knowing that I might have turned around and said, "I don't buy it."
Looking at the reaction so far, it does seem mostly positive, and also appears -- and certainly this is never a guarantee in this situation -- that it's led to some very thoughtful discussion of different issues, due to the layers involved. What's your take on how people have received this story so far?
Alonso: I think you're exactly right. It has led to some really healthy discussion. Obviously, I'm inclined to embrace the praise. [Laughs] As for those who are angry, or think this is a stunt or that "Secret Wars" will undo this, I'd just say, keep reading. The X-Men universe has always been a great place to examine change and the consequences of change in your life -- to examine identity -- and this is just an expression of that. Bobby is a core X-Man, but he doesn't have the profile of Wolverine or Cyclops or Storm. He's always been more of supporting player, so maybe this revelation will bring him an extra level of nuance that will allow him to step more into the spotlight?
By the same token, I do want to make one thing clear: Young Bobby's sexual identity is just one shading of his character. It doesn't alter who he is -- it just opens up opportunities for stories. Bobby is still the Bobby you loved or hated. Anyone expecting drastic and sweeping change to his character will be disappointed.
You've said it wasn't a directive, but as an Editor-in-Chief that has championed diversity, there has to be some pride attached to this, right? To see an extra layer added to a character that has the long history and stature of Iceman.
Alonso: Well, it's nice to help foster an environment where creators know they can think outside the box -- that they can challenge themselves and readers.>>>>>
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4067
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| Posted: 24 April 2015 at 5:54pm | IP Logged | 7
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if you think that this retcon will gain more readers, I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. An Iceman solo comic won't sell whether he is straight or gay.
Maybe, but like every other book on the stands (there have been 68 cancellations in DC's New 52 line since it launched), there are a lot of factors that go into whether or not a book's successful. Good creative team, interesting concept, interesting characters...sometimes you have all those and you get a hit book. Sometimes you have all those and you get a critically acclaimed book that tanks after six issues.
The number of people who had any kind of strong opinion about Iceman on Monday is probably smaller than the number of ongoing New 52 titles that have been published since 2011. Time will tell if Iceman is the next Rawhide Kid or if he's the next Kevin Keller, but it all comes down to whether Marvel gets fully behind this or whether they fumble the ball like they did with Northstar 20 years ago.
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Brian Hague
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Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
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| Posted: 24 April 2015 at 5:59pm | IP Logged | 8
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Morrison himself says that the Beast claiming to be gay when in fact he was not was not a change of any sort dictated from on high, but rather the way he intended the story to play out all along, considering Hank's arguments in favor of claiming to be something he was not a more mature and sophisticated response to the demand for homosexual X-Men than simply outing established characters.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132281
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| Posted: 24 April 2015 at 7:37pm | IP Logged | 9
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Morrison himself says that the Beast claiming to be gay when in fact he was not was not a change of any sort dictated from on high, but rather the way he intended the story to play out all along, considering Hank's arguments in favor of claiming to be something he was not a more mature and sophisticated response to the demand for homosexual X-Men than simply outing established characters.••• How very meta.
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2188
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| Posted: 24 April 2015 at 8:16pm | IP Logged | 10
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Time will tell if Iceman is the next Rawhide Kid or if he's the next Kevin Keller, but it all comes down to whether Marvel gets fully behind this or whether they fumble the ball like they did with Northstar 20 years ago.
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The retconning of Iceman into being gay is not similar to Kevin Keller, since Kevin was a brand new original character. The Iceman being gay retcon is similar to the Rawhide Kid being gay retcon.
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Bill Sandefur
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 August 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 118
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| Posted: 24 April 2015 at 10:49pm | IP Logged | 11
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Matt Hawes wrote: What I find so very interesting about the whole "it's a choice" thing is that it means, if true, EVERYBODY is equally as gay as they are straight. It must be inherent in all of us, with that logic. But, really, does everyone wake up each morning and thing, "I think I'll be gay today," or "I think I'll be straight"? People are so stupid sometimes. ______________________________ That's so funny. I once did a stand-up bit about that exact same topic. The gist of it was that if you think that being gay is a choice, then by that logic, you have to also think that being straight is a choice as well. And if you're straight by "choice" then I've got news for you… you're gay! As for the Iceman ret-con, all I can say is there is nothing I loathe more than a ret-con (bad or good), because it not only screws up the character's present, it also destroys their past as well. So then you can't even enjoy reading back issues anymore. But it seems today's so-called "superstar writers" can't seem to come with an original idea to save their lives. Lord knows they get paid enough. And all they can think to do is write bad fan fiction.
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James Howell
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Joined: 23 September 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 363
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| Posted: 25 April 2015 at 1:04pm | IP Logged | 12
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"Alonso: Well, it's nice to help foster an environment where creators know they can think outside the box -- that they can challenge themselves and readers."
Thinking outside the box?!? The BIG TWO are running the same pandering PC stunt mandate OVER and OVER again!
Comic fans get the comics they deserve.
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