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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 8:15am | IP Logged | 1
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Tangentially, as to the bathroom issue: I'm a guy, and when I go to the bathroom, I don't pay extra attention to anything except the reason I'm there. There are stalls to preserve privacy so that nobody has to (or gets to) observe closely. What, then, the difference if a restroom is unisex? I have NO interest in watching someone pee, regardless of of gender.
As to locker rooms - that's a separate incident, regarding showering. But even so - when I've showered with other men, I haven't made it a point of staring. As was noted, this is the situation for gays. If it turns out we CAN mature a bit, then there should be no problem with unisex public showers. One might see something, but one should try not to look, and everyone could be happy about it. It's a big step, I know, but if humanity could grow up a little bit, it wouldn't be cataclysmic.
And in the end, I don't care if someone feels like a man or like a woman - safe options are available now, and will continue to progress and advance in the future. I just have no interest in having it waved in front of me as a dramatic statement for a cause. Go ahead and be homosexual, or transgender, or even transvestite - as long as you aren't hurting anyone, that's great. But I don't need to hear about it constantly!
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Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4506
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 9:27am | IP Logged | 2
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The bathroom issue is a non-issue. There are numerous countries with unisex bathrooms and years of experience under their belts.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6112
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 9:33am | IP Logged | 3
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A REALLY hard question, then: Many people are tortured and driven by a desire to have sex with children. Our society frowns on this, and such people are considered mentally ill. We do not accommodate them, we do not respect them.
How is being "transgender" different? Given all the twists and turns that have happened in our general understanding of how the brain and mind work -- still a work in progress -- how difficult is it to imagine a future in which it will be determined without doubt that "transgender" is, indeed, a mental illness?
**
How is it similar? It seems to me like comparing a stop sign to the U.S. Constitution. They're both written symbols of law, but one is a single instance and the other is an entire system. Transgender is not a particular desire to do something that's forbidden. If we accept the idea that men and women think differently, then being transgender is having an inescapable point of view which determines how you think-- about every single thing you experience in your whole life-- and is yet at odds with your own body. It is not a single passion that blocks out other things. It is the context for all thought, all experience, from the most fundamental to the most complex.
Gender is more like the operating system of a computer -- functioning properly, Macs and PCs do the same things only differently. Transgender is like realizing you have a Dell PC laptop with Mac guts. Realizing the condition exists is difficult, but once it's recognized everything functions fine-- the metaphoric computer may have been a lousy Mac, but it's a fine PC.
Criminal sexual deviation is more like a computer virus, impairing, interrupting and distorting proper computing until the system can no longer function.
*edit to include more context to the quote of John's question.
Edited by Mark Haslett on 09 June 2015 at 10:50am
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6112
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 9:50am | IP Logged | 4
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It should be noted that, within the transgender science and community, it is recognized that there are variations. There are many people who become convinced they are transgender and are yet unable to convince the people who work in this field (the doctors and counselors) that this condition is more than a strange conviction.
In other words, there is a system (I don't think anyone believes it's a perfect one) used to separate transgender people from people who simply believe they are transgender.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132342
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 5
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A REALLY hard question, then: Many people are tortured and driven by a desire to have sex with children. Our society frowns on this, and such people are considered mentally ill. We do not accommodate them, we do not respect them.How is being "transgender" different? ** How is it similar? ••• Reading/posting my entire message would have answered that question.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6112
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 10:11am | IP Logged | 6
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JB: Reading/posting my entire message would have answered that question.
**
Yes, I see your point now. The possible future is wide open. At this point, however, there is almost nothing similar in our current understanding of these two conditions.
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Joseph Gauthier
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 March 2009
Posts: 1415
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 10:20am | IP Logged | 7
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A REALLY hard question, then: Many people are tortured and driven by a desire to have sex with children. Our society frowns on this, and such people are considered mentally ill. We do not accommodate them, we do not respect them.
How is being "transgender" different?
This is not a hard question, at all. It may be difficult, but a person suffering from such a predilection as you describe above does not have to act upon their desires. If they do, they have violated another human being without consent, and they have committed a crime. Being transgendered, on the other hand, implies no such thing. If a transgendered person seeks gender reassignment, they have interfered in no way in any other person's life. Therefore, the decision to seek reassignment, and any potential consequences, belong to one person alone. As non-participants, all we can hope for is that no one makes a non-considered, rash decision without exhaustively consulting their own personal support system of family, friends, medical professionals and clergy for the faithful, as well as advice from others who have come before.
We should wish this, as we would wish happiness, prosperity and freedom from interference upon anyone.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6112
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 10:58am | IP Logged | 8
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Joseph, did you take that quote from my response or from JB's original post?
With more context, I believe you missed the point being made which is about what may be if transgender condition is someday found to actually be a form of mental illness. If that came to pass, would all this reassignment be seen as mutilation in retrospect?
Edited by Mark Haslett on 09 June 2015 at 10:59am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 11:07am | IP Logged | 9
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The possible future is wide open. At this point, however, there is almost nothing similar in our current understanding of these two conditions.••• There is a lot contained in that "almost." We have before us two mental disorders, brains firing differently from what is considered the norm. One is (rightly) criminalized, one (rightly) not. Both are poorly understood. Put it another way: the standard joke is the crazy man who thinks he is Napoleon. How is THAT different?
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John Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 August 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3145
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 11:49am | IP Logged | 10
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I encourage people to find out about what is considered a Mental Illness by checking out articles by the APA (American Psychological Association) or checking what the DSM V identifies as a mental illness.
I am saying this as a Board Certified Mental Health Counselor.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 11:56am | IP Logged | 11
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Back to my point that what we consider a mental illness has changed dramatically since we used to commit people for masturbation and incarcerate homosexuals. I am reminded of an old joke: If a man says he talks to God every day, he is considered devout. If he says he talks to God on his cellphone, he is considered crazy.
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John M. Jackson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 May 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 188
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| Posted: 09 June 2015 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | 12
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It was classified as a mental illness until recently.
http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/27/being-transgender- no-longer-a-mental-disorder-in-diagnostic-manual/
Edited by John M. Jackson on 09 June 2015 at 12:38pm
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