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Jason Scott
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Posted: 30 June 2015 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 1  

I quite like the idea of Peter using his smarts to make some actual gains for once. I know there's a tendency to always want to paint him as that eternal high school loser figure, but too much doom and gloom can get really wearying after a while. This sounds like a way to have some original adventures, and maybe even get some more humour from seeing Pete being outside of his usual comfort zone..


Edited by Jason Scott on 30 June 2015 at 4:48pm
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Dan Slott
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Posted: 30 June 2015 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 2  

"To be fair, Mr. Byrne, didn't a lot of your best runs of Marvel/DC Comics start with a premise of 'Change is Good!'"

•• Let's take these one at a time, shall we?

"The Hulk and Bruce Banner get separated."

•• And that was intended to be permanent? No.

*** Technically, I could say the same thing about my last big run, SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN with the Doc-Ock-mind-swap. And also at the start of any story that you've told where a major-status-quo-changing event happened. Imagine if we were having this conversation when your run of HULK was just starting and the premise had barely been released.

Some of the assumptions you're levying against this new run are about a book where no one's even read one page from the interiors yet. For the past two and a half years this has been the best selling title set in the Marvel U. I think the team on the book has earned enough good will for people to give the first issue a go.

"Namor uses the wealths of the oceans to become a major mogul."

•• Which he'd done before, with Stan and Jack at the helm.

*** In all of one issue when he was a movie mogul. But you took that, extrapolated on it, and produced some great comics! In that same vein, we're taking something Stan & Steve did-- having Peter come up with amazing, ground breaking inventions (like Spidey's web-fluid, or the anti-magnetic inverter he used on the Vulture) and are extrapolating that to tell a new chapter in Spidey's life.

"Superman's origins from Krypton through Smallville through Metropolis get changed and over hauled."

•• Which had happened many times before and since, and didn't change the character.

*** I'd disagree. You did some phenomenal changes in that run. Especially your take on Clark's life in Smallville. Things you did in your run WERE changes-- and have found their way into everything from LOIS AND CLARK to SUPERMAN ADVENTURES and in SMALLVILLE. In those cases, most people would agree with me that YOUR changes were changes for the good!

"She-Hulk becomes a break-the-fourth-wall style of comedy book."

•• Which didn't change the character.

*** Again, I'd disagree. The way you changed her character were profound. She became completely different then the way she was in David Anthony Kraft's run of SAVAGE, Stern's AVENGERS, and even your FF. In your run of SENSATIONAL you gave the character the license to be goofy, a little bit screwball, and more upbeat than anyone had portrayed her before. That BIG change to her character remains to this day because of the risks you were willing to take in that book.




Edited by Dan Slott on 30 June 2015 at 5:05pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 30 June 2015 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | 3  

Like I said, the problem is obvious. And it's yours.
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Mike Benson
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Posted: 30 June 2015 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | 4  

Drama comes from change. Can't have the first without some of the second. The trick for comics, or any serial fiction, as Mr. Byrne has many times pointed out, is to create the illusion of change.

Mr. Slott, absolutely correct. Criticizing at the beginning of a storyline seems very unfair. If your goal truly is to tell great stories, honor the characters and their history and leave those toys just the way you found them, then kudos to you! I don't know much about your work but you seem like a real class act.

But you'll forgive me for not having the greatest confidence in anything that Marvel is doing. They've shit on characters I love so much at this point that they have no part of my interest left to pique.

Edited by Mike Benson on 30 June 2015 at 5:20pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 30 June 2015 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | 5  

I quite like the idea of Peter using his smarts to make some actual gains for once. I know there's a tendency to always want to paint him as that eternal high school loser figure, but too much doom and gloom can get really wearying after a while.

••

And you know what's supposed to happen when it gets "wearying"? YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO MOVE ON. You are NOT supposed to selfishly demand that the comics and the characters change to fit YOUR needs. Nor are the writers, artists and editors supposed to pander to the ever diminishing pool of people who make such demands.

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Lance Hill
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Posted: 30 June 2015 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | 6  

Spider-Man works best as a hard-luck super-hero, so it certainly is peculiar when things seem to be going his way. I think that's half the fun in these kinds of storylines though - the greater heights Peter reaches, the greater the inevitable fall. Rags to riches to rags again is a tried and tested story.

That's different, I think, from things like ageing characters up or giving them kids etc, where you're stuck with it.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 30 June 2015 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 7  

But you'll forgive me for not having the greatest confidence in anything that Marvel is doing. They've shit on characters I love so much at this point that they have no part of my interest left to pique.

••

"Fool me once. . . "

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John Byrne
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Posted: 30 June 2015 at 5:21pm | IP Logged | 8  

Spider-Man works best as a hard-luck super-hero, so it certainly is peculiar when things seem to be going his way. I think that's half the fun in these kinds of storylines though - the greater heights Peter reaches, the greater the inevitable fall. Rags to riches to rags again is a tried and tested story.

••

Roger Stern -- you know, one of the guys who GETS IT -- has often said the thing he used to like as a fan, reading Spider-Man comics, was that no matter how crappy his day had been, Peter Parker's had been worse!

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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 30 June 2015 at 5:24pm | IP Logged | 9  

The problem with having Peter Parker becoming Tony Stark is the same with him getting married to Mary Jane. There's no way that change can be undone without portraying Peter as a loser (apologies to divorcees and failed billionaires). 

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John Byrne
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Posted: 30 June 2015 at 5:29pm | IP Logged | 10  

There's no way that change can be undone without portraying Peter as a loser (apologies to divorcees and failed billionaires).

••

Present -- and no offense taken.

See, the problem is, too many people, fans and pros alike, have come to think of Parker as a LOSER. He's not. He's a sad sack, to be sure, but he is no more a LOSER than any other average guy -- which is what he is supposed to be, and what he should read as being, provided one does not stick around for 40 years.

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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 30 June 2015 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | 11  

Namor uses the wealths of the oceans to become a major
mogul.

•• Which he'd done before, with Stan and Jack at the
helm.

***

SER: One of my favorite scenes in JB's Namor is an
otherwise quiet moment between Namor and Phoebe, and
Namor comments about she might be helpful in his plans
for world conquest (rough paraphrase). It was a great
fall out of the seat moment because, well, duh... it was
all perfectly within character, all that changed was the
window dressing (corporate "warfare" rather than the
more obvious kind).

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Dan Slott
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Posted: 30 June 2015 at 5:49pm | IP Logged | 12  

"And you know what's supposed to happen when it gets "wearying"? YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO MOVE ON. You are NOT supposed to selfishly demand that the comics and the characters change to fit YOUR needs. Nor are the writers, artists and editors supposed to pander to the ever diminishing pool of people who make such demands."

I make this same argument a lot as well. Though I do believe there can be exceptions. Like any belief, if held too rigidly, it can stifle and suppress good ideas that could prove the exception.

For example, when you told the story where Sue had her miscarriage-- and by the end of the following arc, she declared that she was no longer the Invisible Girl, and that from now on she would be the Invisible Woman, that was powerful. That was the Marvel Universe progressing and moving forward. That was change. And it has stuck for decades because it was a good change.

In an age where every phone has a camera and where newspapers are dying, it doesn't really make sense to have Peter Parker be a newspaper photographer anymore. It just feels wrong in the book.

When Ed Brubaker did his legendary run on CAPTAIN AMERICA, he reenvisioned how James Buchanan Barnes worked in WW2. Imagine a movie like CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE FIRST AVENGER with a red domino masked Bucky. With today's audience, that would seem silly, right? If Ed and his team hadn't told the Winter Soldier stories, we all would have missed out on CA:TWS, which a LOT of people think of as one of the Top 10 super hero movies of all time. (SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE still easily holds the #1 spot, of course.) ;-)

As much as there are elements that (I feel) should always be there for each and every generation (for when THEY discover the characters), there are also elements that should have the freedom to change, so that Marvel Comics can stay relevant and reflect "The World Outside Your Window"... today!

And... sometimes... messing with the concepts that we feel SHOULD be immutable CAN shake things up and provide some really fun stories! Treading on forbidden ground is something that can really keep the reader on edge and interested. If comics ever feel the need to play it too safe, that is as sure of a death knell than anything.

How many people here have been liking Flash Thompson as Venom/Agent Venom? When we made that switch 5 years ago, Eddie Brock fans were furious. Cut to 5 years later... the character has had a great run by Rick Remender, been a character in the Secret Avengers, joined up with the Guardians of the Galaxy, and is now getting a new solo book with further adventures in outer space! He's been in cartoons, video games, and multiple action figures. I go to cons-- and I see at least one Flash Thompson/Agent Venom cosplayer at each show! This has been a FUN change-- and it was all borne out of the idea of Pete's former bully, someone who always idolized Spider-Man getting a chance to BE a weird version of Spider-Man-- a proud serviceman using those strange new abilities in a way to serve his country.  And it worked!

Long story short: There's no hard and fast rule. There's something to be said for holding the line-- but there's also something to be said for change.


Edited by Dan Slott on 30 June 2015 at 5:54pm
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