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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 3:51pm | IP Logged | 1  

The quote that started this thread makes it hard to believe this new story
is supposed to honor the basic character of Spider-Man.
“Peter Parker has stepped up,” writer Dan Slott says. “He’s grown. He’s
become the Peter Parker we’ve always hoped he was going to be. This
company, with Peter’s inventions and Peter’s gumption has gone to new
heights.”

**

"...the Peter Parker we've always hoped he was going to be" is the story
every fan wants to write-- and the one all fans-turned-pro should resist.

When your new idea for the character is to finally do that story that
fundamentally undoes what made him great to begin with-- it's time to
think again.

Edited by Mark Haslett on 01 July 2015 at 3:52pm
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 4:43pm | IP Logged | 2  

"...the Peter Parker we've always hoped he was going to be"

***


All I ever hoped is that Peter Parker as Spider-Man would live up to the credo in the final panel.
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 5:38pm | IP Logged | 3  

When Marvel began it's current editorial regime, I was sort of interested where they were going to go. It was obvious they were experimenting with a much darker, "serious" tone. Soon it got boring, and it seemed they didn't really know what they were doing. In fact they didn't know what to do with their own characters. I left as reader, and pretty much never went back.

Now almost fifteen years later what has that same editorial regime achieved? All that amateurish, slapdash writing under the guise of exploration and experimentation has given very little in the way of memorable storytelling. Compared to what Marvel in the 60's, 70's and 80's gave us, their output of the past decade has been pathetic. 




Edited by Joe Zhang on 01 July 2015 at 5:39pm
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 5:43pm | IP Logged | 4  

The aforementioned Silver Surfer series is really quite good. Light, but deep. Very Stan.
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Andrew W. Farago
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | 5  

Compared to what Marvel in the 60's, 70's and 80's gave us, their output of the past decade has been pathetic.

Were the '90s and all of the '00s pathetic, or just 2005-present?  Any fan of superhero comics who literally can't find anything worth reading from the past 10 to 25 years either isn't trying very hard or is pretty far outside of Marvel's demographic.  Why would a publisher that's hoping to get younger readers spend time and effort into winning back readers who've hated everything they've done since X-Men: The Hidden Years was cancelled?


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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 6:31pm | IP Logged | 6  

I'm sure if I tried hard, there would be something Marvel put out in the past years that would hold my interest for a little while. What I realize now is that whenever Marvel comes up with something silly, their defense is "what, are you against change and innovation, you stick-in-the-mud"? And guys like me fall for that defense. 

The question that should be posed to Marvel is which of your stories from the past two decades can stand up to the the best of your stories? What Spider-Man tales has JMS or Dan Slott told that can compare, and compare well, to Stan Lee, Gerry Conway or Roger Stern?  Which of the hundreds (thousands?) of X-Men stories produced since, yes, X-Men Hidden Years, can be put side by side to the best from Claremont and his collaborators? 

None. 



Edited by Joe Zhang on 01 July 2015 at 6:47pm
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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 6:55pm | IP Logged | 7  

I can see that there is a certain amount of truth to each of the various points of view presented here. And yes, that includes Dan Slott.

Dan's definitely been subjected to a lot of negativity in this thread, and I do think he deserves some credit for attempting to present his point of view with politeness. His work may not be my cup of tea, but I can respect his perseverance and integrity in putting across what he believes.

It's worth pointing out that some of us older fans who don't like modern comics and who pine for the 1960s to mid-80s Marvel fare perhaps need to simply accept that the audience has changed. Popular culture has (d)evolved around us to the point where most movies, TV shows, video games, etc. are heavily infused with faux sophistication, gravitas and angst - like it or not, dark and "edgy" is what the audience expects from dramatic stories.

Where an audience is conditioned to expect certain types of darker, seemingly more complex stories, it's a little unfair to demand that Marvel or DC return to simple 1960s-style storytelling aimed at "all ages"; I don't think the sole test of a good comic book story in the 21st century is whether a 7 year old would like it.

The key issue then boils down to the fact that change isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially in the face of a changing audience. Rather, characters shouldn't change such that they lose their fundamental essence, otherwise they effectively turn into another character. The trick, as people like JB seem to understand, is presenting the illusion of change. Superfluous or temporary alterations to create drama and interest, rather than wholesale (and often nonsensical) changes simply to generate an "event".

My reading of this debate so far is that Dan agrees with this concept and that as his story progresses, Spider-Man will undergo dramatic change, but ultimately return to his familiar and fundamental state. I don't know if this is actually going to be the case.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 6:57pm | IP Logged | 8  

Andrew: Why would a publisher that's hoping to get younger readers spend time and effort into winning back readers who've hated everything they've done since X-Men: The Hidden Years was cancelled?

**

The publisher hoping to get younger readers would not and should not spend any time pandering to older readers.

But not-so-coincidentally, an effort to make the books all-ages friendly, back on-model, and back on shelves where young people shop and might actually buy new comics would also appeal to readers who've hated everything Marvel's puked out since they cancelled XHY.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 7:11pm | IP Logged | 9  

Koroush wrote: Where an audience is conditioned to expect certain types of darker, seemingly more complex stories, it's a little unfair to demand that Marvel or DC return to simple 1960s-style storytelling aimed at "all ages"
-----------------------------------------------
Which is why Disney has fared so poorly with such fare as Frozen and Wreck It Ralph. You just cannot attract an audience with an all-ages approach.

Conversely, Marvel and DC have hit it out of the park with their dark, gritty approach, stripping their sales down to a fraction of what they used to be at a time when super heroes are more popular amongst the wider populace than any time in the last few decades (possibly ever).

Or do people only expect dark and complex when it is published comics with characters that were created with a younger audience in mind?

The evidence in other media, from Harry Potter to Star Wars to LEGO, suggests that it is quite possible to tap into a huge audience with all-ages material. 
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Paul Reis
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 7:15pm | IP Logged | 10  

just to bring in a different perspective to this, i think it was Martin Goodman that just told Stan "write something that sells!" (ok, i'm paraphrasing and assuming, but i'm sure i heard he was the "business" end looking at the bottom line and not at the comics.)
i like that.
and we've often played "what if i ran Marvel" here.
i would be like Martin Goodman. publish "old" Thor in his own comic, publish She-Thor in hers. both concurrently with a clearly labeled EARTH! or EARTH2 top and center on the cover. the EARTH1 Amazing Spider Man could be Peter Parker dating Gwen and still in high school; EARTH2 Spectacular Spider Man would be married to Mary Jane; EARTH3 Uncanny Spider Man would billionare Peter Parker going out with Stark's daughter. 
each book would be consistent to the character and with different creative teams ... and then let sales decide which stays and which goes.

seriously, i do think comic fans are smarter than the average person and could read a (family-and-best-friend) Fantastic Four and understand that it has nothing to do with a (four-strangers) Fantastic Four - just keep the 2 series clearly marked as a ONE and a TWO.

this by-the-way is not a new idea for me - i always felt Clark Kent should have been the primary concern in the Superman comic and almost non-existent in Action Comics (similar to Bruce Wayne in Batman Comics vs in Detective Comics)

but i digress - my bottom line is: identify clearly (before i plunk my $$$ down) which Wolverine series i am buying, and have 2, 3, 4 even! different versions, different backgrounds, different supporting cast, etc and let sales determine which has the longer run.

i can read a Incredible Hulk along side a Criminal Hulk in the same month and keep them separate. 

or am i wrong? can't other comic fans comprehend 2 Daredevils, one good, one bad, the 2 never meet, and each with concurrent monthly adventures: one with single story per issue, the other with ongoing multi issue storyline.

Martin Goodmans of the world - where are you?

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Jesus Garcia
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 7:20pm | IP Logged | 11  

I think most people miss the point that the early sixties where a time of effervescent ideas: the civil rights movement, the eastern-western political polarization, the space race, the materialization of technology which people only read about in science fiction magazines.

The return of the superhero was, what, in 1956 with the Barry Allen Flash? Batman nearly ceasing publication and being saved by the campy TV show.

Weird anthology series like the Twilight Zone, the Outer Limits, Science Fiction Theatre, and One Step Beyond are remarkably suggestive of the types of stories Lee, Kirby & Ditko were coming up with.

Not the least of which was taking part in a world war: Kirby's WWII experiences alone could probably fuel enough stories for a long lasting TV series.

The book Chariots of the Gods inspired Kirby to create the Eternals -- as far as I know -- a valuable Marvel property.

The Depression left its mark on Lee, Kirby & Ditko -- it seems poverty was a pattern in Ditko's youth -- so we see Spider-Man broke most of the time and having to sew his own suit.

Kirby grew up on on the lower east side of New York in a setting of street gangs and he himself was often drawn into actual brawls, throwing punches and kicks: it's little wonder he could draw such spectacular battles.

My point is that the founders of the Marvel age received narrative inspiration from a number of streams that are probably dried up today. It was fashionable to speculate about life on Mars in the 60s but today we know through Nasa's probe programs that Dejah Thoris never lived there.

Who creates comics today that has had personal adventures and experiences not unlike those of the heroes they depict? Kirby certainly did and to a large extent so did Lee and Ditko.

And we expect the same kind of comics produced today, by a wave of what -- dilettantes that could work in other mediums? Kirby had to work as he had a family of 6 to support -- he didn't have other revenue streams and this was decades before comic books and their creators were elevated as a genuine form of literature in the eyes of the public.

The well is dry ladies and gentlemen. We live in a era that is sterile to the imagination, where our biggest challenge is figuring out how much salary increase we are going to get after last weeks annual review, where wars have moved from the battlefield to the stock exchanges.

Witness how even mighty Russia is arrested in its plans to conquer the Ukraine by economic levers that didn't affect Hitler one bit when 75 years earlier he decided Germany needed more living room.

When was the last time you inspected a bomb shelter before deciding on buying a home? Or have your kids tell you how they practiced a bomb drill at school today? People did 60 years ago.

The 21st century, the dawn of the age of the commoditized (sterilized) imagination.
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 01 July 2015 at 7:29pm | IP Logged | 12  

I don't mind there being different titles telling different versions of the characters. 

I think there should be  the core character title. One that will always stay true to the character. Say it's Spider-Man, well in the main title "Amazing Spider-Man" that should be Peter Parker eternally 16 year old high school student. Just the way Stan and Steve created. Even thou Peter won't age. The title under norma circumstances is set in the present day.

As long as that book remains the same. In other books not connected to the continuity of the main title could have Peter as the new Tony Stark. If everyone has something to please them. Everyone wouldn't have to complain.
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