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Darren Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 5994
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| Posted: 28 July 2015 at 6:06am | IP Logged | 1
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---Or from Jim Shooter!
Damn it! While chortling at your comment, I just snorted my coffee. Spent the last few minutes spluttering around my office. Thanks JB.
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Darin Henry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 September 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 61
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| Posted: 28 July 2015 at 10:56pm | IP Logged | 2
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I totally get that it's overkill but I can't help appreciating that an attempt was made to guide readers thru Kitty's emotional state in this sequence. I would love to see how Stan Lee would script this page (if only to see how he'd write Kitty's "voice").
I was 10 and paid 50 cents (a week's allowance) for issue 143 and I'm sure I felt all those words helped give me my money's worth. Heck, those thought balloons also made this issue more fun to read to my son just a few months ago.
The great thing about a comic book is you can always regulate which parts you focus on each time you read it. It's a little frustrating that so many writers nowadays think comic book writing is only about spoken dialogue. |
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132342
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| Posted: 29 July 2015 at 5:33am | IP Logged | 3
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I was 10 and paid 50 cents (a week's allowance) for issue 143 and I'm sure I felt all those words helped give me my money's worth. Heck, those thought balloons also made this issue more fun to read to my son just a few months ago. When I was still working with Chris, one of the principle complaints I heard from fans at cons was Too Many Words!! This was especially true from younger readers, whose concept of getting their money's worth lay in the art, not in how much of it was covered up with balloons and captions. As I said in my first post, I did not create this thread to dump on Chris, but to use that particular page as a kind of object lesson -- and example of the use of the traditional tropes of comics taken too far in one direction. ++++ It's a little frustrating that so many writers nowadays think comic book writing is only about spoken dialogue. I'm one of those writers, and have been for years. I mostly eschew captions and thought balloons, as I feel the former should be covered in the art, and the latter are a bit of a cheat, like a voice-over narrative in a movie. In ST-NV, I try to hew as closely to the format of the TV series as I can, of course, and there I do not use thought balloons at all, and an occasional "Captain's Log" is as close as I get to a caption. (Hm. Captain's caption?)
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12448
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| Posted: 29 July 2015 at 6:00am | IP Logged | 4
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For me, there are pros and cons to captions, even simultaneously. Take the above, by Stan Lee. The captions does nothing really than put into words what Jack Kirby had already put into the art. The caption is about as literal a description as could be asked for, so it's value in that regard is questionable. However, with regard to the audience reading through the work in real time, envisioning a kid there plopped on the carpet and utterly entranced, taking his sweet time to treasure every panel, that caption is quite effective (albeit arguably still unnecessary -- and it clips The Beast's head too).
Stan Lee is my favorite comicbook writer, so none of this is even remotely a knock against him! Look at what he adds in the dialogue to make the scene come to life!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 29 July 2015 at 6:06am | IP Logged | 5
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Stan may have made a deliberate choice in that panel. The Juggernaut is supposed to move at a slow and deliberate pace. That's a big part of his terror factor. It's also difficult to portray in a single panel -- unless there is a lot of copy to slow...things...down.Of course, I could also be overthinking it!!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132342
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| Posted: 29 July 2015 at 6:10am | IP Logged | 6
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Again, not wanting to dump on Chris, but here's another of his ignore-the-art moments, one that showed up a lot, and used to make me NUTZ!
Flip thru our X-MEN, and notice how many times you see this -- a closeup of a character under a big balloon coming in from off panel, with the character in focus having little to say. Writing STAR TREK - NEW VISIONS I find myself having to pay special attention to the pictures I pick, and the dialog I put into them. Unlike literally all my previous work, I write ST-NV panel by panel, shaping the dialog to the picture, while also working hard to keep the character's dialog IN character.
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Flavio Sapha
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 12912
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| Posted: 29 July 2015 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | 7
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To me it looks like a good way to introduce her! You finish reading and there she is for the first time. As if he had been speaking and the camera moved on to her.
But then, these comics were my first love! Hard for me to find fault in them!@ :)
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 30 July 2015 at 4:17am | IP Logged | 8
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To me it looks like a good way to introduce her! You finish reading and there she is for the first time. As if he had been speaking and the camera moved on to her. I don't know many people who can absorb the words completely independent of the pictures. This is one of the many reasons I try to structure my stories so that "reveals" are on the left hand page, and the reader turns to them, rather than reading the left hand page while the "reveal" is in plain view on the right. One more reason I used to get so annoyed when Marvel or DC would shift the order of the ad flats, and my attempt at "pacing" was derailed by a double page spread for some comic vendor.* * Ads often festooned with Image characters, once the Nineties got rolling. I have sometimes wondered how much of the success of Image was due to them being "advertised" in Marvel comics.
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15819
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| Posted: 30 July 2015 at 9:26am | IP Logged | 9
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That is a weird panel with the White Queen, though I quite like Chris' thought bubbles for the panel of Kitty dropping through into the basement. My own take would be that the art alone does not immediately tell me what is going on -- and the bit about her scent disappearing when she phases giving me new info. Seems like a nice touch to me.Yes, Chris is very verbose and might have benefited from trimming this down in places, but it doesn't completely run against the grain of my preference.
Personally, I'm a fan of captions and thought bubbles. I see them as part of the tricks that differentiate comics, things that don't have exact equivalents in film.
Edited by Peter Martin on 30 July 2015 at 9:27am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 30 July 2015 at 10:00am | IP Logged | 10
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thought bubbles
BALOONS!!! +++++ Kitty dropping through into the basement. My own take would be that the art alone does not immediately tell me what is going on -- and the bit about her scent disappearing when she phases giving me new info. Seems like a nice touch to me. KITTY (thinks): Need to HIDE my SCENT!
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Brian O'Neill
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 November 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 1964
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| Posted: 30 July 2015 at 10:31am | IP Logged | 11
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thought bubbles
BALOONS!!! BALLOONS.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 30 July 2015 at 10:52am | IP Logged | 12
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Ya know, it looked wrong, but my spellchecker didn't call me on it. I should have trusted my instincts!
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