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Topic: OT: Candidates For Shakespeare Authorship (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 21 September 2015 at 12:59pm | IP Logged | 1  

If only there wasn't 400 years between us and the actual events!! Oh well.

After this latest thread on authorship I have been thinking a great deal on how much distance there might be between an original work and the published work we have today. With obvious changes in printing; misspelled words, shortened lines, etc., and perhaps other changes that occurred in performance; see the bad quartos, I don't doubt some sort of collaboration must have happened. Whether collaboration was welcomed or not is pure speculation, but I do doubt the type setter making changes was ever intended. I referenced this scene from Amadeus as example: Mozart's Genius. Is that final piece of music Salieri's or Mozart's? It is obviously a collaboration. If that final piece of music was published under Salieri would we even know to give Mozart his due?

So for me lately it has boiled down to who was capable of writing about the particular subjects in the plays. Who first sat down and wrote a trilogy about Henry VI? Who first put ink to paper about Richard III? Or who decided to write a story of a king/father and his three daughters? DeVere fits the bill for me regarding the subjects and he had already demonstrated his ability to write verse. As you noted, Robbie, we may never have definitive proof, but it is still worth thinking about and concluding on good faith who we speculate is due the credit.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 September 2015 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | 2  

If only there wasn't 400 years between us and the actual events!! Oh well.

•••

There's only seventy(ish) years between us and Roswell, yet look what a mess of misinformation that is!

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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 September 2015 at 1:10pm | IP Logged | 3  

Whether collaboration was welcomed or not is pure speculation, but I do doubt the type setter making changes was ever intended.

•••

Not intended, perhaps, but surely expected, since it was so common at the time, and "Shakespeare" made no effort to police the publication of his works.

"Speak the speech... as I pronounce it to you... but I care not what a hash they make in printing those speeches!"

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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 21 September 2015 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | 4  

Good point! I had not even thought that authors might expect the printer to grind up their work. Nice Hamlet reference to support it!
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 24 March 2016 at 6:34am | IP Logged | 5  

Sorry to resurrect this. Was speaking to an acquaintance (online) about this topic. He is pro-Shakespeare (as is his right, I guess) and he said this to me (I'm sure he won't mind me sharing it):


 QUOTE:
He wrote his plays to be performed and was a businessman first and foremost. The works were all published during the Bard's lifetime, but the really authoritative First Folio edition of his works appeared a few years after his death, and it was a major undertaking, hence the delay. His great friends and colleagues John Heminges and Henry Condell went to great lengths to bring it out as they were so determined to present the plays in a form that earned them the respect they deserved.

If there are some mysteries about Shakespeare's life, and some details that are undocumented, that is no more or less than we should expect as it was over 400 years ago.

I am trying to convince him to read books recommended here.

I try to present the following pieces of evidence:

1.) The fact that Shakespeare wrote in an aristocratic manner that was totally natural to him.
2.) The records of everything else in his life - apart from the actual writing of plays.
3.) The lack of mentions of his writing career during his lifetime.
4.) The evidence for his illiteracy

And I also put across the point that it's not just about the lack of evidence for Shakespeare himself, it's also about the evidence for Edward de Vere and Sir Francis Bacon.

This will be debated for some time to come! As I said in my original post, my interest came about when I learnt of the film ANONYMOUS (which I still haven't watched). I have read some books and eBooks on the subject. It seems pretty solid to me. It's either de Vere or Bacon. The case against Shakespeare, if it were down to a jury, would seem rock solid.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 24 March 2016 at 6:53am | IP Logged | 6  

Your friend is subscribing to a few of the more popular myths around Shakespeare.

The works were, indeed, published in various forms during the Stratford Man's lifetime, but those forms were all "pirate" editions, many apparently transcriptions taken down during performances! This is not a unified body, representing an unvarying whole, and there is no evidence that the Author (whoever he was) had anything to do with them.

Heminge and Condell are usually cast as Great Good Friends of the Author, but if that Author was Stratford Will, he had an odd of way of showing it. They are remembered in his will only as an afterthought, in a line interposed between two others. The real mover-and-shaker behind the First Folio appears to have been Ben Jonson, with H & C his puppets.

The "mystery" in Shakespeare's life, if he was the man from Stratford, is that he somehow managed to become the most famous and popular author of the time, and for centuries after, without leaving any trace at all of having a literary career. His business dealings, his marriage, his troubles with the Law, all are quite well documented, but the playwright is absent.* Even his death went completely unacknowledged at the time. (Curiously, Shakespeare wrote no elegy to Elizabeth I at the time of her death, tho Stratford Will was still alive, and the event unleashed a cascade of odes from virtually everyone in England who could hold a pen.)

+++

The case against Shakespeare, if it were down to a jury, would seem rock solid.

••

A small correction: Shakespeare was the name of the playwright. In almost eighty examples of his name on documents, the Stratford Man (of the scribes hired for the job) used that spelling rarely, more commonly favoring spellings that reflected the traditional Warwickshire pronunciation, Shaksper or even Shaxsper.

When discussing the Authorship Question, if is common form to use "Shakespeare" to identify the author of the works, and Shaksper to identify the man from Stratford. This is a point Stratfordians have been working around for centuries, "modernizing" the Stratford spelling to "Shakespeare" and creating an immediate link to their man. A link not supported by anything else.

_______________________________

* His missing education is a puzzle, too. Altho no records survive of the students who attended the Stratford Grammar School in that period, one would surely expect young Will to have been remembered by his classmates. Yet no journals, daybooks, letters, etc seem to exist in which anyone talks about being in the same class or playing shove ha'penny with the Famous Author.

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 24 March 2016 at 6:58am | IP Logged | 7  

Interesting. Thank you. Another thing to add to the list!

I would not be against betting all my money on Edward de Vere, it seems compelling. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 24 March 2016 at 7:04am | IP Logged | 8  

I would not be against betting all my money on Edward de Vere, it seems compelling.

••

The best case for de Vere, as I mentioned upthread, is that choosing him requires the invocation of no grand conspiracies, as is necessary for the other candidates. Just "business as usual" in the Elizabethan court.

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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 24 March 2016 at 9:21am | IP Logged | 9  

 Robbie Parry wrote:
Sorry to resurrect this.

"Resurrection" for a Shakespeare thread is perhaps even more appropriate than in a religious thread if you take my meaning. =)

While many of the plays saw print before the First Folio, it is plain to see that actors and audience members copied the plays for those publications. The motivation was not to publish a definitive version of the plays, but rather to capture the scripts to be performed throughout the land. There are books and papers regarding the bad quartos and their authorship. if you check into the work by Sir Walter Wilson Greg you will see how these things came into existence.

The texts were written to be performed. The notion of copyright and  "intellectual property" did not yet exist. To better understand how the text was protected from the actors you should look up Patrick Tucker and his modern cue scripts for Shakespeare. Understanding that the actors only got their parts and the cue (previous three words) for their lines helps you understand the circumstances of performance.

I'm not sure I would agree that Shakespeare was a businessman first and foremost. "He" wore many hats as a businessman, writer, actor, etc. Perhaps I don't quite understand your friend's supposition, but where is the evidence that supports the statement? Are we any less wrong by saying he was a writer first and foremost?

I also agree with JB regarding Ben Johnson being the force behind the Folio. I've not looked into that much, but I have "William Shakespeare and Others: Collaborative Plays" and it is not out of the realm of possibilities that Ben Johnson collaborated heavily with his Shakes-Peer when creating plays. (puns don't really work in text). It stands to reason that Johnson, a friend and collaborator, wanted to see the Folio printed since so many unauthorized versions existed.


Edited by Eric Ladd on 24 March 2016 at 9:24am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 24 March 2016 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | 10  

It makes more sense that Jonson, once de Vere was dead, wanted to solidify the myth of the Stratford Man, to guard against any Oxfordian claims to the Work. Not that there likely would have been, since it was considered most unseemly for a Peer of the Realm to actually earn money.

It's very curious that Jonson suddenly steps to the fore, claiming to have "loved" Shakespeare ("...this side idolatry...") when in the lifetimes of Oxford and Stratford he, Jonson, had nary a good word to say about Shakespeare.

The whole thing reads very much as a moneymaking scheme concocted by Jonson.

(Jonson knew a thing or six about the importance of names. At a time when spelling ran higgledy-piggledy all over the map, mostly being phonetic, he changed the spelling of his last name, dropping the H, and then locked it down, creating what today would be called a "brand name.")

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 24 March 2016 at 5:12pm | IP Logged | 11  

Here's some news...!



 QUOTE:
LONDON — “Curst be he that moves my bones” reads part of the inscription above Shakespeare’s grave at Holy Trinity Church,in Stratford-upon-Avon. But apparently, someone did. Researchers led by Kevin Colls, the project manager at the Center of Archaeology at Staffordshire University, have uncovered evidence that they say indicates that Shakespeare’s skull was stolen from his grave by a local doctor in 1794.


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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 24 March 2016 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | 12  

Interesting. Why would someone steal a skull? Is it a "thing" that is done?
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