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John Young
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Posted: 26 November 2015 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | 1  

On the Comic Book Historian FB page, there was a discussion regarding Ditko's Spider-Man. Someone suggested that Blue Beetle is the adult progression of Peter Parker / Spider-Man. I could see that, and liked the idea of the inventor superhero. I do know that Steve wanted to keep him in High School, which also makes sense. What do you think?
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Robert Cosgrove
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Posted: 26 November 2015 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | 2  

They were both excellent books.  One wonders if Blue Beetle might not have taken off if published by a more solid publisher than Charlton.  DC, unfortunately, never had much of an idea what to do with him (or any other Ditko character, including those he created for them).
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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 26 November 2015 at 7:18pm | IP Logged | 3  

I would have liked to see DC do something more with the Dan Garrett version of the character.
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 27 November 2015 at 2:08am | IP Logged | 4  

There should be 500 issues each of Ditko's BLUE BEETLE, CREEPER, and THE QUESTION.  They're all great characters and solid creations with incredible potential.  I often wonder what Marvel could have done with the projects Ditko and Kirby tried to launch at DC.

It's amazing that SHADE, THE CHANGING MAN was the most successful Ditko creation at DC, but I never read the Vertigo version so I don't know how close it stuck to the original premise.

I've thought about buying the collections of THE QUESTION as I've always liked Denny O'Neil's writing, but Denis Cowan's art and the redesign look hopelessly 80's (shoulder pads and a mullet?), so I just can't bring myself to do it.

I believe the latest SPIDER-MAN launch has Peter Parker as a successful inventor now, so that might be similar to what the Ted Kord BLUE BEETLE would have been like in the modern age.


Edited by Eric Jansen on 27 November 2015 at 2:09am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 November 2015 at 6:27am | IP Logged | 5  

One of the major mistakes DC made in their interpretation of the Blue Beetle was treating him as Spider-Man. He's not. Different characters with different motivations.

Mind you, DC pretty much ****ed-up all the Charlton characters, so...

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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 27 November 2015 at 8:32am | IP Logged | 6  

Rather than discussing how DC failed with Blue Beetle (no argument that they had no idea what to do with the Charlton characters) - perhaps we should consider how Marvel has failed with Spider-Man. :O
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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 November 2015 at 8:33am | IP Logged | 7  

…perhaps we should consider how Marvel has failed with Spider-Man.

••

First domino, graduating from high school.

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Brian Hague
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Posted: 27 November 2015 at 10:46am | IP Logged | 8  

Ditko did what I'd like to see more creators do when asked to revive an established property. He started over. There is some connection between the Dan Garrett and Ted Kord Beetles, but either could operate independently without it. Ditko's is essentially an up-gadgeted Green Hornet, reflecting the more acrobatic, free-wheeling 60's-style hero he himself helped inaugurate. 

In some sense, Kord is reminiscent of the visuals of Spider-Man. The carefree gymnastics, the open eyes. He's a gadgeteer, as Spidey himself was early on when he invented his web-shooters, spidey-tracers, and the device to cancel out the Vulture's powers. In these respects there's some carry-over from the Spider-Man concept perhaps. I don't think Kord is literally the character Ditko believed Parker should evolve into and therefore the same guy in different drag. I do think there was some differentiation taking place in the concept. 

Not that he would have removed himself from Spidey, but if Lee had finally thrown in the towel to keep Ditko onboard and said, "You're so smart, you script the book as well!" I don't think the Blue Beetle is the Spider-Man we would have gotten.

Ditko has had a tendency to bring visual elements from one project to another. His Shag resembles the Creeper, for instance. The Missing Man (a possible self-portrait?) has elements of the Beetle villain, the Specter. Mr. A has elements of the Question. And in many respects, that's all to the good. It creates a sort of "brand loyalty" outside the confines of the company system allowing Ditko books and characters to remain identifiably Ditko. But is Shag just a "mustache version" of the Creeper? It's debatable.

Having Parker as a super-smart, self-sufficient, self-motivating type, becoming a billionaire industrialist was certainly within his wheelhouse. As Eric pointed out, we're seeing that now in the current Marvel version (which is also sort of a left-handed version of What If #19 in which Spidey is a billionaire movie-star with far too little sense of responsibility and far too much self-interest. "What If," the title that keeps on giving... Of course, if you followed the book, everything Marvel does today and going forward seems kind of old hat.) But there are a dozen other directions to have gone as well before Parker became the objectively Objectivist ideal hero so many of Ditko's characters were.

Killjoy, however? Killjoy is totally Spider-Man. :-)


Edited by Brian Hague on 27 November 2015 at 10:49am
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 27 November 2015 at 11:15am | IP Logged | 9  

I didn't follow the title, but wasn't the first run DC made at the Blue Beetle very much in keeping with the Ditko version? That 24-issue Len Wein, Paris Cullins title was recently collected in a Showcase Presents edition and certainly looks as if they gave doing a direct, straight continuation of Ditko's character a fair shot. 

The "Bwa-Ha-Ha-Just-Shoot-Me-In-the-Head" version is what they decided to do with the character later after the book didn't sell and cleared the path for DC to do what Ditko himself did, which was re-invent the character from the ground up for the modern age.

The Question by Denny O'Neil is a far different story of course. O'Neil literally had Ditko's Question killed in the first issue and brought back to life with brain damage. O'Neil's Richard Dragon then trained him in the ways of Kung-Fu, Eastern philosophy, and moral ambiguity. Even after I sold my collection of Question issues, there's one I held onto since it is apparently a deliberate reworking of a Mr. A story dealing with what a hero is expected to do when a murderer is dangling from a rooftop by his fingertips. O'Neil's Question was all about deconstructing Ditko's hero.

Captain Atom was also a complete misfire, attempting to start the hero over again with a post-Crisis, Watchmen-esque vibe. Just yuck. Nightshade became instant super-team fodder, one more face in the crowd of whatever team book they sidelined her into. Sarge Steel of course became a bad guy in the all-corrupt, all-the-time government of post-Crisis DC.

Peacemaker was given his own mini-series, as I recall. I assume it was as Giffen-esque as that creator's involvement suggests.  Did they do anything with Judomaster aside from his involvement in the L.A.W. mini-series in which DC tried to make Charlton over again into a company-within-the-company as they'd attempted earlier with Impact and the MLJ heroes?

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Sergio Saavedra
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Posted: 27 November 2015 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | 10  

I've never read any Blue Beetle comic, but now I'm curious. Any recomendations?
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Robert Cosgrove
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Posted: 27 November 2015 at 4:27pm | IP Logged | 11  

 "Any recomendations?"

I'd read the Ditko stuff in preference to anything else.  You can pick up DC's "Action Hero Archives, Vol. 2," which I think has all of Ditko's Blue Beetle, all of his Question, and a few other stories at Amazon for about $35, or at your local comicon on sale for probably less.  
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Robert Cosgrove
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Posted: 27 November 2015 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | 12  

"Mind you, DC pretty much ****ed-up all the Charlton characters, so..."

Yeah, I was surprised by that, given Giordano's editorial role at DC and (presumably) his fondness for the characters.  Even Sarge Steel went down the toilet.  
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