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Topic: STAR TREK: DISCOVERY - New TV Series Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 01 November 2017 at 9:51am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Just for the record, Greg, my problem in that long-ago thread was never with you, but rather your prefacing remarks on that issue and characterization of those who disagreed with your position. I didn't see any of that as reflecting directly upon you, but as an argument construction I'd been reading far too often on FB and had simply had enough of. After posting that last response, I took off and didn't look back in on the forum for months afterward. I figured that if I couldn't enjoy posts from Greg Kirkman anymore, there was really no point in sticking around...
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Fair enough. We all have our breaking points, and I generally try to maintain a level "voice", as best I can. I have no doubt that many of the discussions held in this forum would go very differently, if we were all physically in the same room. Reading text on a screen inevitably leads to one "filling in the blanks", in terms of an author's emotions and motivations. The warmth and friendliness of actual human interaction is a vital factor, and posting on message boards removes it. You sacrifice actual human connections for the opportunity to examine a larger variety of opinions than you'd get in a crowded room of people talking all at once.

The important thing to remember is that, while we all may enjoy passionate discussions of what are ultimately unimportant, hobby-related topics, crossing the line into personal insults and meltdown-rants is unnecessary and wasteful. The Internet is a wonderful thing, since it allows people from around the world to communicate and trade thoughts. The Internet is also a horrible thing, since every psychotic out there gets a chance to step up to the microphone. Finding common ground should be more of a priority than emphasizing differences of opinion.

I have visions dancing in my head of 50-year-old man-children rolling around in mayonnaise on the floor of their lonely little apartments, and frothing at the mouth over every little comment I make. And, I'm creeped out at that possibility. Posting in the forum of a well-known comic creator (especially one with a dedicated group of bitter, stalker nutjobs) is a calculated risk, since the lunatic fringe gets a voice, these days. Heck, they get their own podium, via Twitter (which I have zero use for) and the like. 


If you've sworn vengeance on a near-70-year-old comic creator for leaving X-MEN, 37 years ago, then you might want to seek professional help. 

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Doug Centers
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Posted: 01 November 2017 at 10:25am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

"A) Comments are made without the proper context that people actually speaking to each other in the same room would have (personal familiarity, inflection, context, etc.); "

...

Agree completely.
I've been taken to task here more than once. Mostly my fault for either being unclear or not using the correct emoji.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 01 November 2017 at 10:38am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

If you spoke face-to-face with a drunk/furious/half-asleep person, you'd be able to tell that they were drunk/furious/half-asleep. From reading words on a screen? Not so much.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 01 November 2017 at 5:01pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I think it would be best if, going forward, everyone simply assumed I was a drunk/furious/half-asleep 50-year-old frothing man-child rolling about in mayonnaise whenever I post. Just seems safer that way.

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 01 November 2017 at 5:06pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I've never had any doubt.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 04 November 2017 at 1:09am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yrTBc0Gc1sc
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Marten van Wier
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Posted: 04 November 2017 at 4:54am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I don't really agree with him that us the viewer are the winners of this situation.

I have already mentioned several times why I don't like Star Trek Discovery, and the Orville... it has its moments but it sometimes feels the best out of a bad situation rather than the continuation of the spirit of Star Trek that I was looking for.

I am probably a very picky science fiction/action-adventure fan.
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 04 November 2017 at 8:00am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

At least we can all agree that Tilly is the best Star Trek character since Reginald Barclay.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 04 November 2017 at 11:07am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

At least we can all agree that Tilly is the best Star Trek character since Reginald Barclay.

Until season 2, when they decide to revise her character and have her undergo a Super-Barclay transformation.  :-)


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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 04 November 2017 at 12:12pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

nnnnnnoooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!

< / anakin >


Edited by Richard Stevens on 04 November 2017 at 12:13pm
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 06 November 2017 at 2:14am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Some interesting DISCOVERY discussion came up in THE ORVILLE thread between Mr. Kirkman and myself over in the TV section that I thought would be better served here:

<RO> I'm not entirely convinced STAR TREK DISCOVERY actually earned that second season rather than trading on it's name recognition.  
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<GK> What other content does CBS even have to promote its All Access service? It would look pretty bad if the show was cancelled before its first season was even done, and it's apparently done well enough for them to keep it going for at least another season.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that renewing DISCOVERY is a case of sunk-cost fallacy, but I do wonder if that isn't a factor.
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<RO> I would go as far as saying that and take it one further by suggesting it's designed as a loss-leader purely to attract attention and publicity for the streaming service.  Basically, a long form publicity stunt.  The producers and actors involved with DISCOVERY have the gall to stick their noses into current politics in the USA all the while shooting the show on the cheap in Toronto like a bunch of hypocrites.

THE ORVILLE as far as I can tell is filmed completely in the States, with actual location shooting in places like the Vasquez Rocks.   I actually respect that, and I'm Canadian.

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 06 November 2017 at 9:16am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Can you point me to the metrics that you're using as the basis of your thinking? (e.g. viewing figures, subscription figures). There are viewing figures for the premiere on CBS and reports of an associated bump for All Access subscriptions but I can't find anything else -- good or bad -- beyond that of the premiere.
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Peter Hicks
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Posted: 06 November 2017 at 9:45am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

"What other content does CBS even have to promote its All Access service?"
*****************************
I understand that Twilight Zone is being rebooted for CBS All Access too.   
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 06 November 2017 at 2:33pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

As I mentioned a couple times earlier in the thread, CBS isn't losing any money on Discovery.  Their international rights deal for the show with Netflix covered the production costs of the show.  And having it behind the pay wall gives them the bargaining chip of people willing to pay for their content that lets them get higher license fees from cable and satellite companies for their network.
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Luke Styer
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Posted: 07 November 2017 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

 Greg Kirkman wrote:
Apparently, the Klingons can't be allowed to be Isolationists, if they so desire.


 Steve De Young wrote:

I don't think this part is fair.  The Klingons were allowed to be isolationist for decades before DSC.  T'Kuvma's argument was that while the Klingons remained in isolation, warring amongst themselves, the Federation was spreading, bringing in new worlds and expanding its territory, and spreading its culture and ideology wherever it went.  He saw that ideology, despite claiming to 'come in peace' and respect diversity, as a threat to traditional Klingon culture with its values of victory and conquest in battle.  Basically a more primitive and militant form of the problems expressed by the Klingon delegation in Star Trek VI.


I'm loath to defend Discovery, but Starfleet didn't drag the Klingons out of isolationism, a T'Kuvma did.  He flew into Federation space, shot some sort of Federation satellite, floated around until hailed by a Starfleet ship that had every right to be there, then fired first on the Starfleet ship.


Edited by Luke Styer on 07 November 2017 at 1:08pm
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Luke Styer
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Posted: 07 November 2017 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

 Rob Ocelot wrote:
I'm pretty much convinced Tyler is a disguised Klingon but the short time frame for Voq (an admitted isolationist) to be so completely convincing in human language, customs, and mannerisms not to mention all of the nuances of how Starfleet works kind of beggars belief.

The fact that Tyler has lasted as long as he has if he's a Klingon plant, and he's either a Klingon plant or it's a massive misdirect, stretches it a bit, but it's a long-standing Trek trope that a character can get a quick reconstructive surgery and then pass as a member of another species.  This goes back at least to "The Enterprise Incident," and there were a few cases in TNG, as well.
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Luke Styer
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Posted: 07 November 2017 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

 Greg Kirkman wrote:
While the notion that even the Klingons could be redeemed does send a positive message, I do regret the fact that TREK basically watered down its most popular villains for the sake of showing that our worst enemies can eventually become allies. A positive social message which undercut dramatic and storytelling potential, in the long run.

That was at least floating under the surface from the first appearance of the Klingons.

"It is true that in the future, you and the Klingons will become fast friends. You will work together."
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 08 November 2017 at 1:04am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Midnight's Edge roundtable on episode # 7 (with some ORVILLE talk, too):

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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 08 November 2017 at 7:46pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

The time loop episode was probably one of my favorites so far, though that's not saying much. I've actually grown to really like the ship's engineer so that played a big part in it. But one thing about it that really bugged me was the idea that Michael Burnham would be worth more to the Klingon Empire if Mudd sold her to them than the ship that was single-handedly winning the war for the Federation. Ridiculous. 
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 08 November 2017 at 7:54pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

The fact that Tyler has lasted as long as he has if he's a Klingon plant, and he's either a Klingon plant or it's a massive misdirect, stretches it a bit, but it's a long-standing Trek trope that a character can get a quick reconstructive surgery and then pass as a member of another species.  This goes back at least to "The Enterprise Incident," and there were a few cases in TNG, as well.

One important distinction between Tyler and the others you mentioned is that while looking the part they were also trying to lay low, fit in and not get noticed.   Easier to fake the broad strokes but it'll be the little things -- mannerisms, sayings, phrasings, accent, and emphasis that will get you noticed and outed in no time flat.  Eating habits are also another dead giveaway, especially if the person does not find the food palatable but is trying too hard to look like they enjoy it.   This kind of stuff has been the bane of every spy's existence since the beginning of spying.

Tyler?  He eats out in the open and talks to people.  A lot.  He also doesn't shy away from socializing or public displays of affection. Also, no one seems to bat an eye that he's been ultra-promoted to Security Chief ahead of many other people. (although I'm still not ruling out that might be a gambit on Lorca's part).   

Either he's the best damn spy ever in the history of spying or there's yet another twist here.   My theory is that Voq "losing everything" was  literal.   His body has been altered to look human by the augment virus or a re-engineered variant and his memories are someone else's entirely -- I suspect the 'real' Tyler's memories and personality were dumped and inserted into Voq, likely supplanting the original identity.   He may not even be aware he's a 'sleeper' spy.   

One crucial point in the most recent episode was Saru sensing that Tyler was being deceitful about a recent event in the episode but did not sense that his entire personality was a deceit.  It may be that altered-Voq so deeply believes he's Tyler even a telepath or empath may not detect it.  Another interesting point from the most recent episode -- why is L'rell so hot to defect and get on board the Discovery now?   My thinking is that she needs to be in close proximity to Tyler/Voq to activate the suppressed personality -- perhaps a word trigger or some other technological method.


Edited by Rob Ocelot on 08 November 2017 at 7:57pm
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 08 November 2017 at 9:14pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

The time loop episode was probably one of my favorites so far, though that's not saying much. I've actually grown to really like the ship's engineer so that played a big part in it. But one thing about it that really bugged me was the idea that Michael Burnham would be worth more to the Klingon Empire if Mudd sold her to them than the ship that was single-handedly winning the war for the Federation. Ridiculous. 
------------------------------------------------------------ -
I took it to be that Mudd was getting the ship, and Burnham, in exchange for releasing the rest of the crew.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 08 November 2017 at 9:33pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

One more log onto the Voq-Tyler fire.

Many people have pointed out that 'Javid Iqbal' has almost zero acting credits and barely blips on the IMDB.  That might not be unusual in and of itself but it's kind of suspicious for a complete unknown to be cast on something as high profile as STAR TREK in a credited speaking role.

Shazad Latif is of Pakistani, English and Scottish descent and his birth name is actually Shazad Iqbal.  'Iqbal' (Lucky) isn't an uncommon Middle Eastern name but kind of an interesting coincidence among the DISCOVERY cast.  

However, I think that Javid/Shazad are actually two different spellings for the same phonetic name -- in much the same way that my original birth name (James) has several alternate anglicised spellings from Scots Gaelic: Shamus, Seamus, and Hamish (and there's probably several more that I've forgotten).  

edit: just to clarify  --  J/S and J/SH are common substitutions in certain alphabets where the equivalent letter doesn't exist.

Point is, I think the DISCOVERY crew are trying to be too clever with their 'hiding in plain sight' word/name play.  There's apparently a Radio Times interview with Latif where he seems to be trying just a little too hard to distance himself from the rumours that he's actually Iqbal.



Edited by Rob Ocelot on 08 November 2017 at 9:49pm
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 09 November 2017 at 3:23am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

I took it to be that Mudd was getting the ship, and Burnham, in exchange for releasing the rest of the crew.

**** 

Okay, that makes more sense then. :D
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 09 November 2017 at 7:46am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

one thing about it that really bugged me was the idea that Michael Burnham would be worth more to the Klingon Empire if Mudd sold her to them than the ship that was single-handedly winning the war for the Federation. Ridiculous. 
------------------------------------------------------------ -
I took it to be that Mudd was getting the ship, and Burnham, in exchange for releasing the rest of the crew.
-----------------------------------------------
I may not be remembering it correctly, but wasn't it a case of Mudd is left with two choices: not reset and just sell the Discovery, losing the profit on Burnham or reset and add the price of Burnham to the Discovery. He opts to reset for the greater profit of getting Burnham as well.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 09 November 2017 at 9:00am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

So the engineer guy who plugs in to the drive unit - I take it that he is jumping between dimensions during the trips and seeing the crew in those dimensions. Hence his captain Tilly comment.
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