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Topic: STAR TREK: DISCOVERY - New TV Series Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 09 November 2017 at 11:14am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

So the engineer guy who plugs in to the drive unit - I take it that he is jumping between dimensions during the trips and seeing the crew in those dimensions. Hence his captain Tilly comment.
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I have a sneaking suspicion that he's switching places back and forth with his Mirror Universe counterpart, and that's why his personality is almost exactly opposite.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 09 November 2017 at 11:55am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

A better theory. I think yours will be correct
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Marten van Wier
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Posted: 09 November 2017 at 4:16pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I also agree with that that is probably what is happening.

But on another note, how is Discovery going to explain why no one knows about the Mirror Universe until the the Original Series. Time travel? Section 31? Discovery is revealed to be yet another timeline/reboot?

This is why I hate retcons and when writers try to be "cute" by bringing back popular plot devices from series (though in general I hate the Mirror Universe) and inserting them in prequels (Ferengi, Borg)

As someone said on Midnight Edge, for who is this intended? The new audience wouldn't even know about the Mirror universe. The original fans? Some of which are quite defenders of canon? For who is this intended?
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 09 November 2017 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I don't know if it's writers trying to be "cute" or if it's simply fan wank and/or writers bereft of their own ideas so they just recycle what's been done before.
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 09 November 2017 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I also find it kind of humorous that one of the few likable characters on STD is one that either has a screw loose from injecting himself with alien DNA or is a Mirror Universe double. Would the Mirror Universe Michael Burnham be a likable and interesting character as well? :D

Edited by Shane Matlock on 09 November 2017 at 5:47pm
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 09 November 2017 at 10:16pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I recently saw a fan theory that Michael Burnham goes on to become the Captain of the Saratoga, from the beginning of THE VOYAGE HOME.

It's stuff like that which proves the utter stupidity of fan theories. They're really just the nerd equivalent of conspiracy theories--something to make people feel important and generate headlines. Also, in this case, they give the filmmakers too much credit.


On a tangential note, I'm a regular listener of the STAR TREK MINUTE Podcast, which is examining the TOS movies literally one minute at a time. One of the writers of STD was a recent guest-star, and came on to discuss the "escape from Spacedock" sequence in THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK. This guy's clearly a longtime fan, and knows his canon, but there was a certain smarmy attitude to his comments. 

He went out of his way to mock and belittle the (admittedly low-budget and bare-bones) Bridge set for the Excelsior in that film, and indicated that stuff like that is the reason why STD's sets and whatnot need to be presented by the standards of 2017. The whole thing smacked of "we can freely dismiss the old designs and the history because people have high expectations, these days". It just didn't sit well with me, and isn't surprising, given STD's continued misrepresentation and manipulation of the traditional STAR TREK brand and tropes.



Edited by Greg Kirkman on 09 November 2017 at 10:17pm
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Andrew Saxon
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 1:59am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Finally gave in and watched an episode. And then another...and another...

No, it's not Star Trek (more like the Battlestar Galactica Remake meets Farscape), but Discovery is far better in its own right than I expected. At least it isn't boring - I certainly prefer it to the deadly dull antics of TNG season 1. In fact, the only episode I didn't enjoy was a time-loop episode that was right out of the TNG playbook.

If only they hadn't called it Star Trek. If I squint and think of Discovery as something else then it's quite enjoyable - but why should I have to squint.

PS It's interesting reading this thread in conjunction with the TNG Revisited thread.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 6:27am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

The whole thing smacked of "we can freely dismiss the old designs and the history because people have high expectations, these days"

Once that door is opened it tends to colour other decisions.   It's the "I was right about this one thing, therefore I must be right about everything else" confirmation bias.   It will make other tweaks to the canon more permissible and it will be defended as "the audience wanted this, you asked for it".

Hey, as long as you hear something that resembles a sonar 'ping' on the bridge scenes then a couple of F-bombs are ok, right?






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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 1:01am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

As I often like to note, people can be a hardcore fan of something without actually understanding it. Just look at all of the well-meaning fans--who have every detail of every episode memorized--but can't write a good fanfic story to save their lives.

Just as STAR WARS has become a series of expensive fanfilms dependent on nostalgia, so has STAR TREK become "not your father's STAR TREK", but with enough references and Easter Eggs to get fans both talking and trying hopelessly to reconcile this new show with existing canon.

The inherent nerdy self-loathing of so many TREK fans has largely determined where the series has gone, over the past decade. The failure of ENTERPRISE was enough to kill the franchise for a few years, and it was a foregone conclusion that any resurrection would strive for a more...broadly-appealing style. The old style no longer working, combined with TREK fans wanting the thing they love to finally be seen as "cool" is what led to AbramsTREK. 

With DISCOVERY, we basically have AbramsTREK 2.0: something which is very much not STAR TREK in terms of its morality and the intelligence of the writing. But, it pretends to be, by tossing in references to old canon, and by having the characters use big words while speaking quickly, which gives of the impression of the script and characters being smart. 

My favorite example of this from AbramsTREK is "xenolinguistics". NUhura is said to be an expert in xenolinguistics--a big word, spoken during several rapid-fire dialogue scenes--but, at the end of the day, she still ends up in her underwear, being ogled by NuKirk from underneath her bed. So, we have a dumbed-down action movie with big words slapped on top to make it sound like the old STAR TREK. 

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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 8:04pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Agree with you on the stupidity of the recent movies, but I fail to see what you're talking about in Discovery.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 9:02pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Again, I can only speak of what I saw in the pilot episode, but I did see the same sort of Abramsy stuff, there. Perhaps the later episodes haven't been like that, but I can't say.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 11:03pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I have to begrudgingly admit that this is actually worth watching at the moment. I bailed on DS9 and Voyager and whenever I have tried to watch either of these shows, Iíve failed.

This, I am managing to watch. And now, enjoy.
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 13 November 2017 at 7:14am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

I'm beginning to wonder if the mirror was the metaphor so we'd think alternate timelines, not the exact universe itself.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 13 November 2017 at 1:41pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5BlChjvvR2k


This gent has produced a number of very interesting videos on STD, THE ORVILLE, and STAR WARS (including a very well-reasoned, multi-part series on how Rey is a social-justice-inspired Mary Sue character). Absolutely worth a look.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 13 November 2017 at 5:59pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

This whole 'alternate universe' thing could give them an out on the production design, if they wanted to take it.  But I sincerely doubt they will.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 13 November 2017 at 6:39pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Heh, after the F-bombs they said they wouldn't go so far as having nudity in STAR TREK.

I guess they were talking about human nudity.

Could those probes that Burnham was setting up make any less noise and lightshow?  Sheesh.

L'Rell was already planning to blow up the Ship of the Dead with a warp core breach.  It still gets blown up and she manages to get away.  How convenient.

I'm pretty sure they are in the Mirror Universe (or perhaps 'a' mirror universe) at this point.   Of course that "one last jump" was going to be a failure -- it was so clumsily telegraphed in the dialogue and character actions you'd think it was accidental. 

L'Rell's torture of Tyler looks quite surgical -- bone saws, scalpels. Evidence of surgical alteration perhaps?   Tyler looks well healed.  L'Rell OTOH hasn't healed her facial phaser burn.  Hmm.

SuperMichael manages to not only complete her mission of making the most noise ever in a covert operation, she also managed to rescue a Federation prisoner (an Admiral, no less), take a Klingon hostage, goad Kol into a hand to hand fight, steal his Starfleet badge trophy and get the last word in before the Klingon ship goes blooey.  And everyone liked her and thought she was the bestest Mary Sue that Starfleet could ever have.  The end.




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Marten van Wier
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Posted: 13 November 2017 at 7:29pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

While I have not seen the episode myself and only read a recap one thing that rather annoyed me is how one of the Klingons accused the universal translator to rob them of their cultural identity.

I was like "What?" when I read that part. How does a piece of technology that allows conversation between different species to be possible without much of the nuances and meaning being lost in translation (in general) rob one of their cultural identity.

Because as it was mentioned in the episode it was the result of human ingenuity?
It is not canon of course but I think translation technology was already around in the Star Trek universe before humans developed it. (the Klingons sure seemed to speak English quickly after "Broken Bow")
In fact I got more the idea that the universal translator was the result of various Federation species working together to make it possible, a device or program that can learn the languages or communication methods of other beings in a short amount of time instead of the years or decades it would take to develop some kind of understanding.


Edited by Marten van Wier on 13 November 2017 at 7:31pm
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 13 November 2017 at 7:37pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Have to agree, these Klingons are kind of dumb. (though to be honest, I find all post-HONOR!!! Klingons kind of dull.) Hoping the second half of the season has less of a focus on them, because I really quite like every other element of the series.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 13 November 2017 at 11:48pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

 How does a piece of technology that allows conversation between different species to be possible without much of the nuances and meaning being lost in translation (in general) rob one of their cultural identity.

I kind of saw it as a not-so-subtle jab at unilingualism -- popular choices: Quebec, Southern USA, Japan

It is not canon of course but I think translation technology was already around in the Star Trek universe before humans developed it. In fact I got more the idea that the universal translator was the result of various Federation species working together to make it possible, a device or program that can learn the languages or communication methods of other beings in a short amount of time instead of the years or decades it would take to develop some kind of understanding.

When ENTERPRISE seemed to be inventing a new TREK technology every other week the UT was pioneered by Hoshi Sato.  

(the Klingons sure seemed to speak English quickly after "Broken Bow") 

When your Klingons with four nostrils and 20 nipples look kewler and more badass than everyone else's Klingons who cares if you are following canon?



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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 14 November 2017 at 1:47am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Another interesting comparison between STD and THE ORVILLE:



Edited by Greg Kirkman on 14 November 2017 at 1:53am
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 14 November 2017 at 4:54am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

SuperMichael manages to not only complete her mission of making the most noise ever in a covert operation, she also managed to rescue a Federation prisoner (an Admiral, no less), take a Klingon hostage, goad Kol into a hand to hand fight, steal his Starfleet badge trophy and get the last word in before the Klingon ship goes blooey.  And everyone liked her and thought she was the bestest Mary Sue that Starfleet could ever have.  The end
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------
I have seen many, many films and TV shows where male leads have managed just this amount of crap - Die Hard, many Arnold films. Not one seems to have a problem with a bloke doing this.

Can we get off this Mary Sue thing please? I accept that no one has a problem if the female character is in a whole new franchise, say Lara Croft, but put a female lead in a franchise that previously had a male lead and the whole world comes to an end.

It's not like all the blokes in STD are sat around doing nothing. A bloke powers the ships improbability drive for crying out loud. A bloke captains the ship. A bloke is the doctor. A bloke has undergone species reassignment from Klingon to human.

But, oh no, a woman (!) has the main action role that gets all the fights and saves the day. That just cannot be! Star Trek must have a man in that role. Like Riker or someone.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 14 November 2017 at 4:55am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

I feel like Rocket in GOTG - you're making me beat up grass.

You're making me defend STD
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 14 November 2017 at 7:41am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Could have done without the Klingon tits, but I thought it was a pretty good ending to the first half of the season. There are still glaring flaws -- they figure out how to defeat cloaking tech in 3 hours because they really, really need to -- but overall the show is very watchable.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 14 November 2017 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Can we get off this Mary Sue thing please?
-------------------------------
This Mary Sue thing has nothing to do with the character's gender.  Just within Star Trek, a whole lot of folks think Wesley Crusher was a Mary Sue.  I can think of dozens and dozens of them in comics.  A 'Mary Sue' is when a writer or creator creates their own new character, and then that single character steals every scene they're in and is the best in the world at seemingly everything, constantly rescuing more established and experienced characters.
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 14 November 2017 at 5:08pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

Can we get off this Mary Sue thing please? I accept that no one has a problem if the female character is in a whole new franchise, say Lara Croft, but put a female lead in a franchise that previously had a male lead and the whole world comes to an end.

_______________

YES, PLEASE
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