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Topic: STAR TREK: DISCOVERY - New TV Series Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 22 January 2018 at 12:11am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

That's a good perspective on it.

I'm starting to think that I'm enjoying this show because there's a core of nerdy bookworm Starfleetness to the main cast. Even Michael, as much as she makes a big mistake once, cares very deeply about her Starfleet values. That makes me just want to believe the continuity problems are time travel errors waiting to be hammered out.

The JJ Trek movies on the other hand, are rudderless drivel that do a disservice to some pretty good actors and really great characters.
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Victor Perez
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Posted: 22 January 2018 at 12:47am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

"Nerdy bookworm Starfleetness"--that could explain why I might have cheered out loud during the (no spoiler) "we're still Starfleet" moment last week.  :)
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Christopher Frost
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Posted: 22 January 2018 at 7:29am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

This weeks big revelation, though obvious to many fans, is a game changer for the series. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.
 
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 22 January 2018 at 8:03am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

So true. It sure does a lot to mitigate the earlier tone.
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Victor Perez
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Posted: 22 January 2018 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Certainly reminds me of other occasions where we've known what is going to happen but the fun is seeing how it happens. And it is still a mystery: <spoiler alert> spoilery questions below:






Spoilery questions:

1. Did MU Lorca somehow lose MU Burnham and then deliberately cross over to get PU Burnham to execute his crazy plan? Case for this: he was cleared for above-fidget-spinner-death-level knowledge of top secret stuff, like the existence of the PU, he perhaps had opportunity via MU Stamets... Case against: woah, that'a one hell of a Rube Goldberg plan to pull off--cross over, get Discovery, Stamets, Burnham, make it back even before infiltrating the Emperor's ship). 

 OR

2. Was there indeed an accident...and fate delivered him the means and opportunity to return plus a Burnham.  Case for this: more realistic than the above and also his "I am living proof" statement in the coming attractions.

3. Wild speculation: could Lorca have a connection to the Defiant? :)

Some key open questions:

A. Is MU Lorca a good guy (though most definitely not Starfleet good)

B. Is MU Burnham potentially still alive?

C. Is the MU Discovery in the PU?

D. Will ______ find out that Lorca has been eating _______. Not spoiling that for anyone...

E. If the answer to A is "no" do we end up with PU Lorca in the chair in Season 2


Edited by Victor Perez on 23 January 2018 at 1:31am
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 23 January 2018 at 12:14am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Not quite as good as the previous two episodes, but still strong.

*PU Defiant appears to be a red herring.   Nonetheless, it's a cool reference that ties TOS, ENT, and DISC together in a nice way. It's also a pretty grim fate for anyone in the MU who boarded the PU Defiant and spent time there.  The reign of Emperor Hoshi Sato may have been briefer than we thought. :-(

*Someone over at the AV Club has an interesting theory on why the MU and the PU are so closely linked and seem to be in sync -- and it's a byproduct of how the transporters work.  It kind of whittles away at the power of the original TOS tale and makes the MU less of a physical place.   I don't think this is what the DISC writers are going for though.

*There's a pretty big revelation about a key physiological difference between PU and MU humans -- and it all seems to be based on a lighting/directorial decision made for the DS9 MU episodes.  It elicits a pretty big "huh?" from me.   It's the kind of thing you'd dream up in your own headcanon if you were writing wanky fanfic, and then you'd promptly throw it out because it's *too* convenient (and wanky).   I really hope they leave it just as part of the Lorca revelation and not take it any further.   I will absolutely cringe if someone escapes a MU prison by shining a light in someone's eyes.

*Anyone still clinging to Section 31 theories about how all of this information about the MU (especially Stamets' duality) is going to be suppressed for at least a decade?

*Why do I think PU Tyler is going to end up being left in the MU and MU Voq (a peacemaker of sorts) is going to transition to the PU?

*Well, the Kelpians *are* technically cattle on their homeworld.   Didn't think they'd take that concept to it's logical endpoint onscreen, but there we are.   Why is it when they remove the TV network influence the first things they inevitably add are tits and cannibalism?

*They imply that MU Michael may not have been raised on Vulcan (hence MU Sarek's reaction last week) but had been raised by Georgiou (and Lorca, to an extent). I don't even want to think about what they were implying about how 'close' Michael and Lorca were.   That's pretty ick, even for no-holds-barred-no-network STAR TREK.
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 23 January 2018 at 8:35am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

>Why do I think PU Tyler is going to end up being left in the MU and MU Voq (a peacemaker of sorts) is going to transition to the PU?

I'm hoping for that myself.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 23 January 2018 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

*Well, the Kelpians *are* technically cattle on their homeworld.   Didn't think they'd take that concept to it's logical endpoint onscreen, but there we are.   Why is it when they remove the TV network influence the first things they inevitably add are tits and cannibalism?
----------------------------------------------------
Technically, this wasn't cannibalism, as it wasn't humans eating humans.  You and I know that the Kelpians are played by human actors in makeup, but in the universe, how is a human eating a Kelpian different than a human eating a dolphin?  Or whale blubber?  Michael is horrified by it because she has a Kelpian who is a friend, but that has more to do with the way, for example, most Americans would find eating a dog distasteful.

Once you bring alien species into it, the line between eating the corpse of one species and another becomes difficult to draw ethically.  I'm assuming that that's why in the Prime Universe, Vulcans are vegetarians and humans don't eat non-replicated meat. 
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 24 January 2018 at 7:56pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Technically, this wasn't cannibalism, as it wasn't humans eating humans.  You and I know that the Kelpians are played by human actors in makeup, but in the universe, how is a human eating a Kelpian different than a human eating a dolphin?  Or whale blubber?  

Michael is horrified by it because she has a Kelpian who is a friend, but that has more to do with the way, for example, most Americans would find eating a dog distasteful.

The director of this episode did some very clever slight-of-hand when it came to this issue.  Michael thought she was choosing a Kelpian to be her servant while on the Emperor's ship.   It's presented in such an ambiguous way, you think she picked who she thought was MU Saru to keep him safe -- the Kelpians in that scene were deliberately made up to look nearly identical.   Then you get to the dinner scene, and zing! You (and Michael) are not entirely sure it was MU Saru and that was a deliberate scripting and directorial choice.   The horror is played out in exactly the same fashion as Douglas Adams did with the "Dish of the Day" in HHGTTG -- only the regular humans seem to be squigged out by it.  To the aliens (and more importantly, the dish) this is normal and to waste food is insulting to not only your hosts but to the dish itself.

I believe most cultures on Earth find eating *pets* to be distasteful, since they are usually considered to be members of the family unit.  I can't speak for the cultures where dogs are considered an item on the menu, but I imagine there's a very hard line drawn between animals-as-food and animals-as-familiars -- to the point where they are likely considered to be separate animals.   Not that I condone this practice, but I felt it should also be thrown into the discussion.

There's a great irony then, that it's MU Georgiou who loves eating Kelpian since in the PU she herself was consumed by Klingons.   As the TNG Klingons say, a corpse is merely an empty shell and now has extra utility since a soul isn't occupying it.    

Once you bring alien species into it, the line between eating the corpse of one species and another becomes difficult to draw ethically.  I'm assuming that that's why in the Prime Universe, Vulcans are vegetarians and humans don't eat non-replicated meat.

This is a really good point and I hadn't considered that angle to it.   The Federation goes to great lengths to ensure the equality of it's members -- to the point that all species are considered "people".   Any time racism is brought up on DISC they are talking about it being between sentient races (presumably racism within a species is something that prospective Federation members have to iron out for themselves before being allowed to join).   That same yardstick would also apply to cannibalism -- you don't eat your own "people".  What about hon-Federation members?  Klingons in this era aren't part of the Federation and  Vulcans sidestep the issue entirely by choosing to be vegetarian.

The only other STAR TREK series to even broach the subject of interspecies cannibalism is, ironically, TAS ("The Slaver Weapon").  The Kzinti make it quite clear they consider humans to be food in some circumstances and they have little regard for Spock due to his vegetarian nature.


Edited by Rob Ocelot on 24 January 2018 at 7:59pm
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 24 January 2018 at 10:29pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Well, the Selay may have eaten the missing Antican ambassador on the TNG episode, "Lonely Among Us," but that was mainly played for laughs.

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 25 January 2018 at 6:31pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Kind of impressed that they had the eye thing seeded all along.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 10:35am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Caught up now that I am back in the U.K. this show is getting rediculously good and has become the show I want to watch as soon as possible.
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Victor Perez
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 10:59am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Agreed... there is going to be some serious withdrawal when the season is over!
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 3:11pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

P U
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Jozef Brandt
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 9:53pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply


"Make the empire glorious again" ?  That's about as subtle as the Klingon's chanting "remain"

Oy. 
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 28 January 2018 at 11:42pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Not gonna lie, Saru's speech got me choked up. Great fights, too.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 29 January 2018 at 2:39am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Not gonna lie, Saru's speech got me choked up. Great fights, too.

Same.   That fight choreography was something else!

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Victor Perez
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Posted: 29 January 2018 at 6:37am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Felt like there were more fisticuffs in one episode than an entire season of TNG!
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 29 January 2018 at 8:04am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

Saru was really good in this episode, like something has finally clicked into place for the ship and the crew. Enjoyed the return of Stamets to the animated flesh also. Disappointed that Burnham's plan revolved around her and Giorghiou's hand-to-hand combat skills, with a marked lack of ingenuity.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 29 January 2018 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

*I take it Saru is going to step into the captain's chair.    He certainly seemed to take charge, give orders and take no shit.   It's a remarkable turn for the character and a great performance from Doug Jones.   I'd much rather watch a captain by circumstance rather than a captain who is in the chair 'just because' (*cough* Lorca *cough*).   It was also nice to see some of the supporting bridge characters get some screen time.   I was beginning to fear this show was starting to become the three note Saru, Michael and Tilley hour.

*Could things not be any more telegraphed for MU Lorca's return from beyond the grave?   His droning on about destiny guiding his life makes me think his 'death' in the mycelial network was meant to happen and his future self trapped in the network is sending snippets of the future to his earlier self.   That's about the only way I can see his weird roundabout plan making even a lick of sense.

*What's so special about PU Michael that makes her better than her MU counterpart?  Vulcan childhood and martial arts?

*So, have they jumped to an alternate possible future for the PU?   I don't remember the Federation having this much trouble with Klingons.   You'd think if they'd nearly lost a war their disposition towards the Klingon Empire would be more serious during TOS.

*As the episodes roll on I'm wishing they hadn't set this series in the past.   The unrecognizable Klingons might as well be some other new post-TNG race -- heck, if anything they are Remans in their look, behavior and politics.   If you really want to carve your own mark on STAR TREK then you might as well pick an era no one is fond of so you can make up your own continuity instead of crapping on already established events and timelines.   The post-NEMESIS era is wide open and dare I say it, I think DISCOVERY could have made me actually appreciate NEMESIS and gave the Remans an actual point to their existence.   As it stands the MU aspects (while fun) really don't jibe with TOS.   Short of erasing themselves from the timeline and never existing they are never going to put the genie back in the bottle so "Mirror, Mirror" can make any sort of sense.   It's kind of sad to think the only reason DISCOVERY is set in the past is because Bryan Fuller demanded it -- I now kind of what to see what he had planned, because someone else is making a post-TNG show with pre-TOS window dressing for no real reason.


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Bill Collins
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Posted: 30 January 2018 at 1:49am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

It occurred to me while watching the latest episode that
we know nothing about black bridge female, robotic
looking bridge female and bridge female with facial
enhancements even though we`re on episode 13, which is a
bit sad.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 30 January 2018 at 6:12pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Still think they will lead to some Borg related stories. Think they had more lines as MU characters than their usual roles
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Bill Collins
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Posted: 30 January 2018 at 10:42pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

It was the MU roles that made me realise James,i want to
know more about them.
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 01 February 2018 at 12:27am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Still don't give two farts about many of the characters, including the series lead, but I will say the mirror universe story arc finally got me into the show's narrative and made the show itself much more interesting and entertaining. The second half of the season was much better than the first. Although I don't understand how in a whole season they haven't worked at least some information about the other bridge crew members like the robot-looking person and cyborg girl. 
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 01 February 2018 at 3:05pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

It occurred to me while watching the latest episode that
we know nothing about black bridge female, robotic
looking bridge female and bridge female with facial
enhancements even though we`re on episode 13, which is a
bit sad.
---------------------------------------
How much did we know about Worf or O'Brien, for example, by this point in Season 1 of TNG?  The show's already been renewed, there will be plenty of time, with a number of previously focal characters on the show now swept aside, to more fully develop other members of the Discovery bridge crew in future seasons. 
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