Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum Page of 4 Next >>
Topic: Superman and Magic (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Michael Hatton
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 524
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 4:46pm | IP Logged | 1  

It kind of annoyed me the way certain writers handled Superman and Magic.

Here is the way Ilook at it and you can tell me if I am wrong.

I never liked them saying that he was vulnerable to Magic.  Some people to that to mean that he was more vulnerable than a normal person.  What they meant was that he was pretty much the same as a normal person when it came to magic. 

Even then there is still something wrong with that statement.  For instance, I would not say that I am vulnerable to uncooked Spaghetti Noodles, but if you hurl one at me at 10 times the speed of sound it could kill me. 

It is the same way with Superman.  If someone enchants a knife so that it is twice as strong as it would normally be, it still would not hurt Superman.  If someone enchanted it so that it could cut through anything then it would hurt Superman. 

It depends on the spell.  Someone may create a creature from Magic just because that creature is created with Magic does not necessarily mean it can hurt Superman it depends on the creatures properties. 



Back to Top profile | search
 
Kevin Pierce
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2010
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 2  

Goes back to the old argument, would Thor's hammer  K.O. which the answer would be "Yes"
Back to Top profile | search
 
Ron Farrell
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 1518
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | 3  

The enchantments of Thor's hammer have nothing to do with hitting power, so whether or not it knocks Superman out depends on how clean a shot Thor gets out of his right arm.

Kurt Buisek got it right in JLA/Avengers: it took out Superman when he wasn't ready, he stopped it when he was.

Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Robot Wrangler

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 11502
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 5:26pm | IP Logged | 4  

Superman has no special vulnerability to magic. He just has no defense against it, like thee and me.

As to the question of Thor's hammer, it would be like Lou Ferrigno hitting Ah-nold with a sledge hammer.

Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar
Official JB Historian

Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10935
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 5:41pm | IP Logged | 5  

 John Byrne wrote:
As to the question of Thor's hammer, it would be like Lou Ferrigno hitting Ah-nold with a sledge hammer.

Speaking as a deeply ashamed Californian...

How I wish!

Back to Top profile | search
 
Kevin Pierce
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2010
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 6:28pm | IP Logged | 6  

Kurt Buisek got it right in JLA/Avengers: it took out Superman when he wasn't ready, he stopped it when he was.


********************************************************** **************

I disagree, there is no way Superman should've stopped Thor's hammer. And shame for Joey Q, for approving that to happen.




Edited by Kevin Pierce on 22 March 2005 at 6:35pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Ron Farrell
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 1518
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 6:47pm | IP Logged | 7  

Jeez... they played it fair, Superman beat Thor, Batman conceded to Cap.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Robert White
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4561
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | 8  

 Ron Farrell wrote:

The enchantments of Thor's hammer have nothing to do with hitting power, so whether or not it knocks Superman out depends on how clean a shot Thor gets out of his right arm.

Kurt Buisek got it right in JLA/Avengers: it took out Superman when he wasn't ready, he stopped it when he was.



Not so, Thor can charge Mjolnir with magical energy (Unfettered Might) to increase its hitting power. Of course, Thor couldn't do that because Superman's "I Was First!" aura would prevent that particular attack from functioning...

All sarcasm aside, I don't care how "ready" Superman is, if Thor tags him like he did Exitar (the Celestial!) Superman is off to meet his folks. Nuff said!
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Lund
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 15 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1997
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | 9  

Busiek got it wrong on all counts...
Back to Top profile | search
 
Ray Brady
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3494
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 7:19pm | IP Logged | 10  

 Robert White wrote:
Thor can charge Mjolnir with magical energy (Unfettered Might) to increase its hitting power.

Thor CAN do that. In this particular case, he DIDN'T do that, because he had Superman on the ropes. Superman surprised him. Next time, Thor would have the advantage.

I'm baffled as to why this scene has elicited so much controversy.

Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Kevin Pierce
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2010
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 8:11pm | IP Logged | 11  

Jeez... they played it fair, Superman beat Thor, Batman conceded to Cap.

******************************

So, so, I mean Superman beating Thor in the MU is not the same as Batman saying "You could beat me", Thor shoud've lost in Superman in the DCU and Captain America should have given Batman the beat down.

 

 

 

Back to Top profile | search
 
Kevin Pierce
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2010
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 8:15pm | IP Logged | 12  

Thor CAN do that. In this particular case, he DIDN'T do that, because he had Superman on the ropes. Superman surprised him. Next time, Thor would have the advantage. I'm baffled as to why this scene has elicited so much controversy.

************************************

The Hammer is still magic in nature so I still don't believe Superman could've or should've stopped it.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Peter Svensson
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 January 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 1483
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 8:48pm | IP Logged | 13  

Mjolnir is magical. So is Dr. Fate's helmet. But I'd bet that if Dr. Fate threw his helmet at Superman, he'd be able to block it.

Yes, Mjolnir is a very powerful weapon, but it is still a physical object. When Thor throws the hammer, people get hurt by it because it's a big ol' hammer being thrown at high speed. It's just that Superman can react at high speeds with great strength. That's what he does. He's Superman.

Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5516
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 8:57pm | IP Logged | 14  

Right. Plus let's consider that the Hulk is just as vulnerable to magic as
Superman. Does the Hulk ever go down immediately whenever he gets hit
by the hammer? They would have pretty short fights if that were the case!
Back to Top profile | search
 
Kevin Pierce
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2010
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 9:52pm | IP Logged | 15  

Right. Plus let's consider that the Hulk is just as vulnerable to magic as
Superman. Does the Hulk ever go down immediately whenever he gets hit
by the hammer? They would have pretty short fights if that were the case!

***********************************

How is Hulk just as vulnerable, Superman gets hit with the hammer he goes down simple as that. Thor's hammer and Dr Fate's helmet are not the same, they serve different purposes.



Edited by Kevin Pierce on 22 March 2005 at 9:53pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Ray Brady
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3494
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 10:03pm | IP Logged | 16  

 Kevin Pierce wrote:
Superman gets hit with the hammer he goes down simple as that.

Which is exactly what happened in JLA/Avengers. He got hit, he went down. In ONE single instance during the course of their fight, Superman managed to block Thor's blow, surprised him, and momentarily got the upper hand.

Why is that so unfathomable?

Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Kevin Pierce
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2010
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 10:46pm | IP Logged | 17  

Which is exactly what happened in JLA/Avengers. He got hit, he went down. In ONE single instance during the course of their fight, Superman managed to block Thor's blow, surprised him, and momentarily got the upper hand. Why is that so unfathomable?

********************************************

Thor said no one could block his hammer in all nine kingdoms or something like that. Makes no sense that Superman whose weakness is magic should be able to block it.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Peter Svensson
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 January 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 1483
Posted: 22 March 2005 at 11:32pm | IP Logged | 18  

 Kevin Pierce wrote:
Makes no sense that Superman whose weakness is magic should be able to block it.

Superman's weakness isn't magic. It's just that magic works on Superman just like it does on anyone else. If Doctor Strange cast a sleeping spell on the JLA, Superman would fall asleep just as would Batman and the Flash. He isn't immune to magic, but nor is he especially weak. Said sleeping spell wouldn't be extraeffective on Superman.

But Superman is not specially weak against magic. As was stated above, Hulk is vulnerable to magic as well. Doctor Strange could cast a sleeping spell on the Hulk, and it would work. Thor's hammer doesn't instantly KO the Hulk. And Superman is about as strong as the Hulk. (I won't open up that can of worms.)

Now, Thor's hammer is magic in that it returns to him when he throws it. It can also do all sorts of cosmicy things, and control the weather. But none of those make it impossible to dodge or block. It's not "The Mighty Mjolnir That Never Misses Ever Because of Magic!"  The reason why most people can't block it is because they don't have incredibly fast reflexes, or sufficient strength to block the hammer because Thor throws it really really hard, and really really fast. Superman is fast enough and strong enough to block it. At least as he is portrayed currently. John's Superman wouldn't be that capable.

Wow. I feel real geeky. Geek Geek Geek Geek Geek.

Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Marc Woolman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 39
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 6:45am | IP Logged | 19  

Ok, my second ever post.

I've read this debate before and if you go by established continuty, Kurt Busiek got it wrong.

Thor's hammer is a magical striking WEAPON that has been shown to hit with a mystical force of its own that seems to be greater then Thor's own strength.

Roger Stern during his Avengers run had a scene where the Avenegers are doing a practise battle and someone accidentally blasts Thor's hand which causes him to drop Mjolnir towards the She Hulk. She quickly grabs Captain America's shield and braces for impact but Thor's hammer still knocks her on her ass. She even comments on how powerful an impact it must have been to knock her down when she uses Cap's shield to protect herself.

Tom Defalco wrote a Thor story where a bunch of bad guys were piling on Captain America and they were super-powered (trolls maybe, I can't recall) and Cap's only hope is to pick up Thor's hammer which is on the ground next to him under the dogpile. Cap does, swings Mjolnir, and the force of Mjolnir instantly repells all the baddies away.

A much older Thor issue (from my childhood, so the details of who wrote it/what issue number, etc. are gone from my memory) has Loki in Asgard using mjlonir to batter Thor into unconsciousness. Loki clearly is not as strong as Thor or anywhere near Thor's stength level.

These 3 examples are from different time periods and all are in continuity, and I'm sure a longtime Thor fan could site many more examples, and they clearly show that mjolnir hits with a mystical force all of its own.

Superman should have been K.O.ed. He should have lost his invulnerabilty and felt the magical impact moreso then say the vastly stronger Incredible Hulk (I will open that can of worms) because the Hulk's level of invulnerability wouldn't fade due to a magical impact.

 

 

 

Back to Top profile | search
 
Bill Dowling
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1988
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 8:48am | IP Logged | 20  

 Ray Brady wrote:
I'm baffled as to why this scene has elicited so much controversy.

Because people disagree about how it works.

Kurt Busiek and you think that Thor's hammer has no more chance of hurting Superman than a sledge hammer does of hurting Superman.

John Byrne and I think that Thor's hammer has no more chance of hurting Superman than a sledge hammer does of hurting Arnold Schwartzenegger.

When the difference of opinion extends even to the professionals involved, there's going to be controversy. It shouldn't be all that baffling.

Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Ian Muir
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 158
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 21  

 Bill Dowling wrote:

 Ray Brady wrote:
I'm baffled as to why this scene has elicited so much controversy.

Because people disagree about how it works.

Kurt Busiek and you think that Thor's hammer has no more chance of hurting Superman than a sledge hammer does of hurting Superman.

John Byrne and I think that Thor's hammer has no more chance of hurting Superman than a sledge hammer does of hurting Arnold Schwartzenegger.

When the difference of opinion extends even to the professionals involved, there's going to be controversy. It shouldn't be all that baffling.

Anyone got Stan Lee's e-mail address? If anyone can settle this, it's The Man!

Back to Top profile | search
 
Thanos Kollias
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 June 2004
Location: Greece
Posts: 5009
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 8:53am | IP Logged | 22  

Peter Svensson got it right.

Kurt Busiek got it right, in that story.

John Byrne definetely gets it right every time.

Superman is as vulnerable to magic as anyone else. Magic is not Kryptonite, he doesn't lose his powers and instantly becomes a weakling! If he is carrying a building on his back and a magic dart hits him on the leg, he will feel pain but he won't drop the building because his powers failed!

Thor's hammer has been blocked before. By "Superman", that is Count Nefaria. In an almost exact situation. Written by Shooter (Marvel EiC at the time) and drawn by Byrne. If you think these guys got it wrong....

Superman, after all, is not capable of lifting or stopping Thor's hammer just because he is strong enough (certainly a lot stronger than the Hulk and please don't use the madder=>stronger cliche, I will tell you Superman can absord Hulk's radioactivity ala Rampage and render him useless.... ), he is also "worthy".

The question is why he couldn't lift in the final issue of JLA/Avengers. Is this some new spell?

Back to Top profile | search | www | email
 
Ronald Pegram
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 862
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 8:58am | IP Logged | 23  

 Marc Woolman wrote:

Roger Stern during his Avengers run had a scene where the Avenegers are doing a practise battle and someone accidentally blasts Thor's hand which causes him to drop Mjolnir towards the She Hulk. She quickly grabs Captain America's shield and braces for impact but Thor's hammer still knocks her on her ass. She even comments on how powerful an impact it must have been to knock her down when she uses Cap's shield to protect herself.

Tom Defalco wrote a Thor story where a bunch of bad guys were piling on Captain America and they were super-powered (trolls maybe, I can't recall) and Cap's only hope is to pick up Thor's hammer which is on the ground next to him under the dogpile. Cap does, swings Mjolnir, and the force of Mjolnir instantly repells all the baddies away.

A much older Thor issue (from my childhood, so the details of who wrote it/what issue number, etc. are gone from my memory) has Loki in Asgard using mjlonir to batter Thor into unconsciousness. Loki clearly is not as strong as Thor or anywhere near Thor's stength level.

In the case of the trolls, who is to say that Captain America hadn't activated some of other powers of the hammer. That thing open energy rifts and what have you.

In the case of Loki, I could batter Evander Holyfield into unconsciousness with a hammer. Damn, who couldn't? You don't have to be as strong as someone to KO them with a hammer!

Back to Top profile | search
 
Frank Robert
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 624
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 9:02am | IP Logged | 24  

NOTE: This is a reply to the original post in this thread.  Thanks.

Like any character in comics, Superman's relationship with magic varies over time.  On balance, however, I'd say you are right: It is the strength of the magic, not the magic itself, that must be accounted for.  Superman has, of course, taken shots of magic that have felled the entire League -- JLA Primeval and JLA Seven Caskets readily come to mind.  And has survived magic attacks that would surely kill any "normal" person -- Dominus' power blasts, IDCAP's magic arrows and spells, Captain Marvel's "SHAZAM" blasts, Blaze's hellfire and spells, the Demon's hellfire, the new Bizarro's punches, Cythonna's ice and transmutation effects, etc., etc.

Thus, I say it's like this: The bulk of continuity shows that Superman is no more and no less vulnerable to magic than ANY person with comparable levels of power, resiliency, invulnerability and strength of will.

How's that work?  John?  Others?

_Frank Robert



Edited by Frank Robert on 23 March 2005 at 9:06am
Back to Top profile | search
 
Kevin Pierce
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2010
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 9:13am | IP Logged | 25  

Superman, after all, is not capable of lifting or stopping Thor's hammer just because he is strong enough (certainly a lot stronger than the Hulk and please don't use the madder=>stronger cliche, I will tell you Superman can absord Hulk's radioactivity ala Rampage and render him useless.... ), he is also "worthy"

**************************************************

Huh? Superman absord Hulk's radioactivity where did this come from?

***************************************************
Thor's hammer has been blocked before. By "Superman", that is Count Nefaria. In an almost exact situation. Written by Shooter (Marvel EiC at the time) and drawn by Byrne. If you think these guys got it wrong....

**************************************************
I don't remember JB posting anything that states he agrees or disagress with the outcome of the Superman/Thor battle one way or the other. So perhaps would should let him answer when he gets back.
Back to Top profile | search
 

Page of 4 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login