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Phil Frances
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 339
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| Posted: 11 June 2016 at 11:18pm | IP Logged | 1
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I'm surprised the gun manufacturers and gun shop owners haven't done exactly that. Sales would go thru the roof!
Thanks, JB - there is clearly more here than I thought - why would gun sales go through the roof ?
Apologies if that comes over as disagreeing - just trying to understand - as a Brit ...
Edited by Phil Frances on 11 June 2016 at 11:24pm
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Brian Skelley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 February 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 231
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| Posted: 12 June 2016 at 12:47am | IP Logged | 2
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Eric Ladd wrote:
| A small victory in California for regulating some aspect of guns |
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There are a bunch of regulations at both the Fed and State level. In Columbia v. Heller the Supreme Court ruled that the 2nd meant that people had the right to bear and keep arms, but that the Government (both Fed and State) could impose regulations. The ruling you're speaking about (IMHO) was correct as the right to being allowed to have arms doesn't mean that I have the right to hide it from view. There's a lot of differences in the ways states handle CCW stuff, but most require a license (Except AZ, which was passed the same day as being allowed to carry guns into a bar.. I sighed heavily that day, and I'm OK with guns). My point being, that regulation on concealment isn't really about the 2nd.
John Byrne wrote:
| Sadly, as this tragedy demonstrates, the "good guys" are usually able only to respond to something that has already happened. Most often meaning someone is already dead. |
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Is there ever a case where someone could do something before hand? Even LEOs aren't able to stop an active shooter until he/she's active.. the law would be really touchy on it until the crime happened regardless of it's the LEO or civilian. No one (technically) is allowed to introduce deadly force unless deadly force is already in play.. that's what separates a murderer from a defender, or a Police officer in a shooting. While a LEO would have a better shot in court, there's really no way legally to just shoot someone... unless you're John Wayne... then yeah sure, but who'd tell him no?
Phil Frances wrote:
| Can't anyone just press for the Second Amendment to be revised ? |
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Of course it can.. though it's worth pointing out that almost every gun law goes in favor of the guns. If the anti-gun side couldn't get any traction after a bunch of kids were freshly killed, there's little chance you'll get it now. Right/Wrong/Indifferent, that's just how it is..
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Brian Skelley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 February 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 231
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| Posted: 12 June 2016 at 12:54am | IP Logged | 3
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Phil Frances wrote:
| Thanks, JB - there is clearly more here than I thought - why would gun sales go through the roof ? |
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Anytime there's a chance something will be taken away, people make a run on it. In the case of guns, anytime it looks like there's a good chance there will be an actually effective restriction, people go buy them. The guns would be 'grandfathered' in (in most cases, if there ever was a outright ban on guns I doubt they'd let what's out there stay out there, it'd be pointless) and the law wouldn't apply to them.
As example, the AR's in the 80s had the full auto ban go into effect. The rifles out there that were sold before the ban went in are tech legal to own. They cost as much as a house right now as gun nuts want fully auto weapons without a lot of the hassles, but they're tech legal. You can still buy/make full auto weapons, but you have to file a bunch of paperwork and pay a ton in fees to get the permissions, which also take a long time as there's a lot of background checks.. you also have to make sure the Government keeps track of your weapon... and they stop buy to make sure it's where it's supposed to be, and your paperwork is up to date.. which I think is pretty reasonable of them.
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Phil Frances
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 339
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| Posted: 12 June 2016 at 2:25am | IP Logged | 4
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Cripes!*
As complicated as I thought this thing is in the US --- it's even more complicated, then ..
So, how do you square people dying against a right to 'bear arms' - accepting there will always be random or organised loons ( and apparently increasingly so ) ?
*It's Scots I think - read alongside 'lummee', 'jings' and 'crivvens' as expressions of surprise in UK weekly comics ....
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Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4506
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| Posted: 12 June 2016 at 4:49am | IP Logged | 5
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Phil Frances wrote:
| why would gun sales go through the roof? |
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I have a friend that works for an online private auction site for guns. Basically, eBay for guns. Whenever there is a hint of restrictions their activity spikes. When Obama was elected their site set and broke new activity records three days in a row out of the fear guns would be banned when he became President. Much the way fear of no food and water at a storm drives sales at the market, fear of restriction drives sales of guns in the US. Fear drives quite a bit in the US to be blunt.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132234
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| Posted: 12 June 2016 at 6:20am | IP Logged | 6
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Altho Eric loses JBF washroom privileges for a week (for answering a question directed to someone else) his answer is correct. Gun sales spike at the least whisper of increased restrictions.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35722
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| Posted: 12 June 2016 at 8:04am | IP Logged | 7
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About 20 people dead in gay nightclub shooting, Orlando police say
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 12 June 2016 at 9:00am | IP Logged | 8
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Police are now counting fifty fatalities. Fifty people who were alive yesterday, looking forward to their futures, their plans. Now dead, because of the actions of a single person with a gun. To borrow a line from Clint Eastwood in UNFORGIVEN, when you kill a man, you don't just take everything he has. You take everything he's ever going to have. Once again, I suggest that the Second Amendment is Unconstitutional, since it wipes out the rest of the document.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35722
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| Posted: 12 June 2016 at 9:06am | IP Logged | 9
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50 dead. 53 injured. Worst mass shooting in modern American history. And the drumbeat will go on about this being the lunatic fringe, that he would have done harm with or without a gun, that nothing trumps a person's right to own a gun and (in many states now) conceal/open carry. If Sandy Hook didn't change the gun culture in a significant way, then nothing will. Sadly, not even this tragic loss of life.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132234
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| Posted: 12 June 2016 at 9:36am | IP Logged | 10
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Since this attack happened at a Gay nightclub, it will almost certainly be classified as a "hate crime." Perhaps something can be made of that. The Gay community has an increasingly strong presence in politics. Perhaps they can use that big stick here, and accomplish what Sandy Hook did not. At least that way these deaths might be more than numbers added to an already obscene count.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35722
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| Posted: 12 June 2016 at 9:40am | IP Logged | 11
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Or it swings the other way 'round. Some (many) will take the position of Texas Lt. Governor Dan Patrick who tweeted this just hours after the murders:
Disgusting piece of human trash.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132234
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| Posted: 12 June 2016 at 9:54am | IP Logged | 12
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I knew there would be assholes who'd go there. After all, anyone who claims to be a Christian really has no choice. "It's in the Book!" as the old saying goes. The Bible literally and specifically condemns homosexuals to death. Strong case to be made for this shooter doing God's Work. The Second Amendment plus the Bible. A deadly combination in every sense.
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