Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum Page of 5 Next >>
Topic: Of all powers, Speedsters are the hardest to portray. (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Robert Shepherd
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 March 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1268
Posted: 22 June 2016 at 2:58pm | IP Logged | 1  

I love speedsters as a concept. Flash is my favorite JLA character. And I'm always curious as to what it would really be like for someone who can move faster than normal, vs supersonic, vs near light speed.

When watching the recent footage of Quicksilver, while the scene is pretty damn awesome to watch, it occurred to my that the speeds that quicksilver needed to attain to do the things he does is far beyond his power set. Then I realized what the movie is portraying isn't really super speed but extreme time dilation.

I think there is a difference between having super speed versus having the ability to shift time.

So then I started to wonder, at what point, at what speed, does time dilation start to manifest?

Another thing that is interesting is the complete ignorance of the kinetic energy produced by a speedster, yet often they are able to turn on a dime and redirect their forward motion instantaneously - as long as their feet are touching a surface.

If a speedster runs at mach 1 on a highway, you'd see him/her. If a speedster could move at mach 1 speed in a small room, would you see a blur? Would you see anything at all? 

And why are speedsters always assumed to have unlimited endurance? Shouldn't a speedster perhaps be able to run at mach 1 speeds yet collapse from exhaustion 1 mile into the run if it was an all-out sprint?

I could go on and on about this but I hope to start a conversation with you all. What are your observations, likes, dislikes, etc about this power set.


Edited by Robert Shepherd on 22 June 2016 at 9:22pm
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132137
Posted: 22 June 2016 at 3:39pm | IP Logged | 2  

The "Quicksilver" scene in DoFP is a great Flash scene, but a terrible Quicksilver scene.

It's part of the ongoing blanderization of Marvel characters -- something that goes all the way back to when Stan and Jack were still handling the FF. As characters become more and more powerful, they become less accessible. We might still say "Cool!" -- and rightly so -- but it's more because a scene is well drawn than because we actually feel as one with the characters. Ditto for someone like Superman.

And to the title of this thread, true that! Thebest portrayal of super speed I've ever seen was in the Superman animated series, when the Flash appeared. In the scenes I saw, he didn't run. He was HERE, then he was THERE.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Ed Love
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 October 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2712
Posted: 22 June 2016 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | 3  

The live-action portrayals of super-speedsters rarely works for me. In comics, I can generally have the suspension of disbelief, but when I see it in live-action, I realize all the problems that are generally ignored. I think some of these Waid addressed in creating the concept of the Speed Force, so that the Flash is not merely running fast but manipulating energy. Otherwise: While the Flash/Quicksilver are able to run at super-speed, the rest of the world still operates on regular speed. Moving at super speed doesn't really allow Quicksilver to drink a coke in a microsecond. You would be able to read a book by fanning  through the pages with your thumb, but not by turning the pages one by one, which would just rip the pages out. Mechanical devices like doors, keyboards, etc are not going to work as near as fast as the speedster can move and to try would most likely cause damage.

Likewise, grabbing guns out of crooks hands faster than they can blink or saving people by grabbing them when you're moving fast enough to be invisible- you've just caused untold injuries if not killed them outright. As the joke goes, it's the sudden stop that kills you.




Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17659
Posted: 22 June 2016 at 4:38pm | IP Logged | 4  

I was going to start a thread about superhero powers being amped up
over time, but my comment may be okay here.

Sometimes I wish that the power levels of many superheroes were
significantly less than they are. Someone with the strength of ten,
twenty... even fifty or a hundred men... Fine. However, when characters
can lift over a hundred tons...

I'd prefer the same kinds of limits for speedsters as well. Don't get me
wrong; I enjoyed plenty of Flash stories as a kid. I just think he's a bit
too fast.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
Posted: 22 June 2016 at 5:31pm | IP Logged | 5  

Sometimes I wish that the power levels of many superheroes were 
significantly less than they are. Someone with the strength of ten, 
twenty... even fifty or a hundred men... Fine. However, when characters 
can lift over a hundred tons... 

***

One of my favourite moments from the 70s Hulk TV series was when he stopped a car crusher. He clearly struggled with it as the pressure became too much. He resisted it long enough to get out of there. It made the Hulk no less impressive - he still stopped the damn thing - but he had a hard time of it.

If the TV Hulk had had unlimited strength, he'd have stopped it easily, the scene would have lasted several seconds and that would have been it. Instead we got to see the Hulk be BOTH impressive and struggle against power.

As for super-speed, I guess less can be more. Like with any power.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Bill Guerra
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 March 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 1062
Posted: 22 June 2016 at 7:41pm | IP Logged | 6  

Robert, some speedsters have been shown to have limits. Quicksilver in the "Age of Ultron" movie was shown to be winded a couple of times between extended runs. Also, the Whizzer, from the (real) Squadron Supreme also had to eat A LOT and have downtime between his activities.

So there are at least two speedsters out there who have some limitiations :)
Back to Top profile | search
 
Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17659
Posted: 22 June 2016 at 8:54pm | IP Logged | 7  

Also, the Whizzer, from the (real) Squadron Supreme also had to eat A
LOT and have downtime between his activities.

---

This was true of Wally West for a while, too. It was during his slower
phase.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Robert Shepherd
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 March 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1268
Posted: 22 June 2016 at 9:32pm | IP Logged | 8  

Super strength is another power I've thought about. Just because a fellow can bench press 100 tons, his punching power should only be as good as his mass x speed....right?

And what if Flash was punching Superman. Flash should be able to fight faster than even Superman can keep up with, but Flashes punches shouldn't have enough kinetic energy to harm Superman much. you would think Flash would shatter the bones in his hands no matter what speed he punched.

Yeah, the speed force is the "magic" that lets the Flash get away with more than he should.

Flash really should be the most powerful hero around, bar none.
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Paul Kimball
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2163
Posted: 22 June 2016 at 9:44pm | IP Logged | 9  

So stepping out of comic world for now because I know we do have to have
to accept certain things to go with the story…….

So if you can move that fast, you have to be able to think even faster or you
would run towards something, think you want to stop but not have stopped
until you had passed that spot by several miles.
If you do think that fast, then how could you ever be caught by surprise?
Anyways, I'm gibbering.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2280
Posted: 22 June 2016 at 9:57pm | IP Logged | 10  

Even as a kid who loved them, I always was bothered by how Superman was fast enough to be in two places at one time (changing clothes to Clark Kent in mid-stride!) and how Flash could run at the speed of light but was constantly being threatened by villains with easily removable guns in their hands!

I was always struck by how realistic Robert Kanigher wrote the Flash's speed in the origin story--including the "time dilation" effect of the waitress dropping a tray of food that seems to Barry to be hanging there in mid-air.  THAT is a great moment and would seem cool to even modern audiences--as proven by how much movie patrons love Quicksilver in the X-MEN movies.  It was John Broome, it seems to me, who took Flash's speed to extra-unbelievable levels.

I still love super-heroes, but I prefer their powers to be limited.  (Superman breaking a padlock with a flick of his wrist is a lot more interesting to me than him pushing a moon out of orbit!)  I would be fine if the Flash were just a few times faster than a regular human--being able to run a one-minute mile is still amazing and would likely enable him to be a formidable hand to hand fighter.  You could STILL take him by surprise!  As it is, Flash could normally have any villain stripped to his shorts and sitting in a jail cell before he could pull the trigger on his cold gun or even get the second syllable of a threat out.

Or even if you keep Superman and Flash's speed at their usual unbelievable levels, the effects of their speed on the environment would still likely restrict them.  WHY WOULDN'T changing to Clark Kent in the blink of an eye cause a sonic boom?


Edited by Eric Jansen on 22 June 2016 at 9:59pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2181
Posted: 23 June 2016 at 12:58am | IP Logged | 11  

The last Cyborg 009 anime series also handle super speed well. Fast forward to about 8 or 9 minutes in this video to see how 009's "accelerator mode" is depicted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI3L9WEuKBU
Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12409
Posted: 23 June 2016 at 5:10am | IP Logged | 12  

What's super-speed? How about being able to move no faster than 15 miles per hour? For a super-speed, it sounds resoundingly slow, right? Except -- that translates into 22 feet per second. Consider that ability in close quarters. Every half-second, a super-speedster with this power is 11 feet here, 11 feet there, here, there, here, there, etc.

If we think of Quicksilver (who is exponentially slower than the Flash) as being able to move much, much faster than a mere 15 miles per hour, then what? At 60 miles per hour, he moves 88 feet per second. But he's still being easily out-paced by any number of vehicles, so that's no good, right? Is his maximum speed 210 mph, which is 308 feet per second? Double that? 420 miles per hour is 608 feet per second. It would be hard enough to portray 22 feet per second (at 15 miles per hour), but 608 feet per second? 

But is that still way too slow for him? Looking up how fast an average bullet is, I see it's 1700 mph or rounded a bit up it is 2500 feet per second. Is that how fast Quicksilver can move? He can run from Manhattan to Boston in about 8 minutes? And in a room that's 400 sq ft, i.e., 20' x 20', he can traverse one end to the other in 1/125 of a second?

And Superman and the Flash make that appear standing still!

In any event, if we go back to a more comprehensible speed of 15 miles per hour, or 11 feet per half second -- is that how fast Spider-Man can move? Too fast for him? Too slow?
Back to Top profile | search
 

Page of 5 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login