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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132321
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| Posted: 21 July 2016 at 6:56am | IP Logged | 1
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I wouldn't count J'onn out too quickly in a fight with the Torch...•• Neither would I.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 21 July 2016 at 6:58am | IP Logged | 2
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I think that the nature of the story might determine the quality of the team up, rather than the actual heroes. For instance, Aquaman and Namor might be an interesting team up in a merfolk war (Tritonis and Poseidonis battle... and the winner gets Earth 616's Atlantis!)
On the other hand, I'm not certain I could think of an interesting story with Hawkman and the Falcon. I'm sure there is... and the fact that I'm not a professional writer indicates that.
Also, part of the team up is that sometimes, the interesting part is not the overlap, but the complementary abilities. That's a little of what the interest in the Champions was... there was the strong guy, the knowledgable stealth person (who was also the leader), the ranged attackers (and back up strong guy), and the visually impacting flyer. Had a different writer worked on the book, and been allowed more than five characters, it could have been much more successful. Look at the West Coast Avengers... a bit different line up in what the characters brought, but still more complementing than overlapping abilities, and that was a five person team. (And interestingly, at the time, only one of the WCA - Iron Man - had his own book as well.)
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 21 July 2016 at 7:24am | IP Logged | 3
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Interesting points, Eric. I agree for the most part.
I think THE CHAMPIONS needed a stronger hook. Yes, it was nice to see Hercules in a regular book; and, yes, always interesting to see a hero or team outside New York City. However, it needed something more, something really enticing. I don't believe it had that.
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Bob Simko
Byrne Robotics Security
Negative Mod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 5982
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| Posted: 21 July 2016 at 9:09am | IP Logged | 4
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Always struck me as a "here are a bunch of low tier characters that fans think
are fun but we don't have enough to do with them..."
Fun series for what it was
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 21 July 2016 at 9:51am | IP Logged | 5
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Always struck me as a "here are a bunch of low tier characters that fans think are fun but we don't have enough to do with them..."
***
Cynical, but true.
I once did a topic here about the parallels between wrestling and comics (search function should find it if anyone is interested). Well, based on Bob's points, I think it's another parallel: there are lower-tier wrestlers, in various federations, who no-one knows what to do with. So they put them on an obscure wrestling show or they hook them up with 3-4 wrestlers to form a unit.
My point, if I have one, is that it does come off as being "filler" in both wrestling and comics.
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Bob Simko
Byrne Robotics Security
Negative Mod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 5982
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| Posted: 21 July 2016 at 3:39pm | IP Logged | 6
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I also think part of the novelty was that it wasn't a title you
saw on the stands very often, so it had that rarity
attractiveness to it. I haven't red those issues in a loooong
time...now I'm curious as to how they've aged.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 21 July 2016 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 7
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Let me know if you do read them, Bob.
I didn't buy them at the time (was just a very young child), but I did read them years later. Out of curiosity more than anything. Now I've read everyone's comments, I am remembering things like the lack of major villains.
I wonder if the title had been able to work if they'd been able to get hold of those major villains. The Champions VS The Sinister Six! The Champions VS Doctor Doom! The Champions VS Magneto. All intriguing (in my view).
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Bill Catellier
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 September 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 3225
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| Posted: 21 July 2016 at 6:20pm | IP Logged | 8
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I never got into Champions. Though it had characters I liked in other books, this title never grabbed me. Granted I've only read a few issues.
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2292
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| Posted: 21 July 2016 at 6:37pm | IP Logged | 9
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I happen to be reading the first appearances of Hercules in the Thor MARVEL MASTERWORKS right now, and right out of the gate he had star appeal! Lee and Kirby really knew what to do with him. And the red-headed, catsuited Black Widow was always great too. There was one George Perez AVENGERS covers that featured those two and they really looked awesome together. I wouldn't mind a new version of the CHAMPIONS with Herc and the Widow starring, but some thought would have to go into who their teammates could be.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
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Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 22 July 2016 at 3:37am | IP Logged | 10
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I wouldn't mind a new version of the CHAMPIONS with Herc and the Widow starring, but some thought would have to go into who their teammates could be.
***
Trying to think who would work.
Ghost Rider strikes me as someone who is definitely not a team player (ever). Sure, he seems like a guy who will show up and lend a hand, but only when it's convenient.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132321
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| Posted: 22 July 2016 at 5:46am | IP Logged | 11
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Always struck me as a "here are a bunch of low tier characters that fans think are fun but we don't have enough to do with them..."*** Cynical, but true. •• The truth is even more cynical. Group books were showing themselves to be popular -- Avenger, Defenders -- so Marvel wanted more. There were only a few characters who were not currently affiliated, tho, so they got lumped together. Note: a group book is one where the characters join together from other sources. In the case of the Fantastic Four or the X-Men, the term used was "team book," since they started as a team. The terms after a while tended to be used interchangeably, which made things confusing. And, of course, books like ALPHA FLIGHT didn't help -- there the model was the Avengers, but none of the characters had their own titles.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
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Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 22 July 2016 at 9:20am | IP Logged | 12
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Thinking more about this topic, I must say that the best team/group name for me (within the Marvel Universe, at least) is the Defenders.
The Avengers always baffled me, much like the 60s spy drama, because what were they avenging exactly? It didn't detract from my enjoyment, but they didn't appear to do any avenging. Avenging, to me, is James Bond going on a personal crusade in LICENCE TO KILL.
The Champions sounds good, but it's a little bit ordinary and very widespread, describing everything from the superheros were are discussing to wrestling champions, business champions, etc.
The Defenders sounds good. And accurate, given they are actually defending something.
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Topic Closed)
