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Brian Skelley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 February 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 231
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| Posted: 22 July 2016 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | 1
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Reminds me of some video I watched a few years ago where some guy dissected the "Death of Superman" story line. It was amusing watching it, as the longer he went on, the stupider the choices they made in the story sounded. He did hypothesize at the end that the "Death of Superman" killed comics as many knew them. Suddenly people saw the Big Two for the machine they are, and it broke the illusion that they were doing anything other than milking stories to turn into headlines. Suddenly no one was pretending that death was going to be anything more than a marketing stunt that will be turned over within the next few months. While I'm not sure I agree with him, I am hard pressed to think of them treating death so lightly before. It used to feel like the time a character remained dead was much longer and even then, the character seemed to earn it's way back. It wasn't a wave of a hand, it was a long story about how they returned. Of course I could be remembering it wrong.
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15809
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| Posted: 22 July 2016 at 6:42pm | IP Logged | 2
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I don't think you are remembering it wrong, Brian.
The difference between the Death of Superman and those that came before was that those that came before were not cynical stunts.
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Jason Scott
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 August 2012
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1167
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| Posted: 23 July 2016 at 5:24am | IP Logged | 3
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An appropriate topic perhaps, since Marvel comics is dead to me now.
(I used to really dislike it when people said that, thinking it was a reductive over-reaction..but now..)
I honestly can't understand why in an age where their movies are cleaning up, that you can't actually follow the adventures of those comic characters on screen in the actual books. Thor no longer Thor, Iron Man about to be replaced as well, Bruce Banner dead, Steve Rogers Cap not really anything like hmself, Fantastic Four no more, Wolverine AND Cyclops dead, with the X-men being edged out the door. The list goes on and on. Sadly my comic readership will no longer. Thanks Marvel... :(
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132316
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| Posted: 23 July 2016 at 5:46am | IP Logged | 4
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In many respects we must ultimately blame fandom. After all, Publishers for the past twenty or thirty years -- perhaps more -- have done little beyond pander to what they perceive as the fans desires (ignoring Stan Lee's famous dictum*), and fans in that time have become a very bloodthirsty group.Consider: When Wolverine was introduced into the X-Men, he was not immediately popular. In fact, there was a huge outcry from fans who saw him as somehow usurping the Beast's proper place. Fans demanded that Wolverine LEAVE. (If only he had!!) Just a few years later, when Kitty Pryde was brought into the group, fan response was no better at first. But this time, the letters demanded that she be KILLED. In days of yore, if a character was unpopular or seen as being of no further use, two things were likely to happen: the writers would simply stop using the character, or, if the character was deemed important enough, s/he would would be given an on camera departure. But death? Very, very rare, and usually reserved for origin stories. What changed things? I think I must off up a heartfelt mea culpa here. It was almost certainly the death of Phoenix that tipped the scales and gave so many fans and retailer death-boners. And provided lazy writers with a quick and easy way to spike the sales. ______________ * Never give the fans what they THINK they want.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 23 July 2016 at 8:32am | IP Logged | 5
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Mr. Byrne noted Captain Marvel dying of cancer, and those attending him doing nothing about their cures being spread among the public in general. Absolutely right; "Virus X" may sound stupid, but nobody thought that a cure for it could be applied to the public.
The real world can't be ignored, but it can't be fully included either. One of the most reprehensible comics I ever saw was the Spider-Man issue that "commemorated" 9/11. Marvel had the gall to show Spider-Man, the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, etc. helping out with the aftermath of the disaster. One page showed a number of villains watching from a distance, and even showed Dr. Doom with that single tear (going down the outside of his mask... WTF?)
This story demands an answer to "Where were the super heroes after the first plane hit the tower?" But okay, even if we assume that the crashes occurred while everyone was busy... how the actual hell did the Avengers etc. not go after the perpetrators? One of the worst crimes ever committed, and they weren't off to find out who did it? Reed Richards, Tony Stark, Peter Parker - all these geniuses and they didn't even try to find out who did it? And Doom - okay, I've never written him, but I had to imagine the line, "Who has dared to attack this city that Doom would rule? Retribution will be speedy and it will be devastating!"
And first responders and others near that site who have respiratory infections... hey, Mr. Fantastic, how about saving the COMMON PEOPLE?
A moronic idea... and using a national disaster to f***ing sell COMIC BOOKS?!?!? If I ever needed a way to determine that Marvel had no shame any longer, that was it.
And I still say that any writer who has to kill a character instead of some other change that can be reasonably undone is a bad writer... or under directive of some bad editing.
P.S. The little creature that perished for Superman was "The Menace of Superman's Pet", in World's Finest 112; it was a little bit of a rehash of "Superman's New Power!" in Superman 125, where his miniaturized image absorbed kryptonite rays to save him. Every five years... |
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132316
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| Posted: 23 July 2016 at 8:48am | IP Logged | 6
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As I pointed out at the time, the race to produce comics that cashed in on 9/11 was utterly ridiculous IN CONTEXT. These are superheroes who live in a world where time travel AND magic exist.
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Stephen Churay
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8369
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| Posted: 23 July 2016 at 9:40am | IP Logged | 7
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JB, I think you are being too hard on
yourself for the death of Phoenix. There
may have been death in comics before,and
it became a big story but The Death Of
Superman was the first to make an event
out of it. I do agree that fans should
shoulder most of the blame. Sadly, a lot
of those fans are now the ones driving the
car off the cliff.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132316
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| Posted: 23 July 2016 at 9:52am | IP Logged | 8
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I think you are being too hard on yourself for the death of Phoenix. There may have been death in comics before,and it became a big story but The Death Of Superman was the first to make an event out of it.•• But I don't think that would have happened had the Death of Phoenix not come to be viewed as an "event" that could be replicated -- even tho the circumstances surrounding Phoenix were entirely unique.
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Jason Scott
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 August 2012
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1167
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| Posted: 23 July 2016 at 4:46pm | IP Logged | 9
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I think you are being too hard on yourself for the death of Phoenix. There may have been death in comics before,and it became a big story but The Death Of Superman was the first to make an event out of it.•• But I don't think that would have happened had the Death of Phoenix not come to be viewed as an "event" that could be replicated -- even tho the circumstances surrounding Phoenix were entirely unique.
---------------------------------------------------
I agree with Stephen that you might be being too hard on yourself as well. I mean an argument could also be made that the Death of Gwen Stacey in the books opened up the door there to those sort of things being an option for all the big drama. (Though I get that that was 'only' a supporting character as opposed to a lead hero/heroine. And it wasn't like her own father hadn't already been killed off in the books as well.)
I remember for a while though people seemed to look back on it as if it was a dividing point from the Silver age of comics, saying it was like Superman had suddenly failed to save Lois Lane. As if that was the end of the traditional 'hero saves the day' type happy endings. Though it's hard for me to see it the way that folks did at the time, since I wasn't around back then. Whilst even as kid, and a UK reader, I do remember the shock waves caused by the Phoenix story.
Hmm, Maybe it's all cumulative. Gradually knawing away at any reluctance there maybe initially was for killing off characters at the big companies. I mean who knows? It did occur to me the other day, that if the Killing Joke was written in todays market place, they would have had the Joker kill Barbara. (Not that what they did do instead wasn't bad enough.) But if it was done now they'd probably be thinking that the next writer could just come up with a way to resurrect her in the revolving door of death we currently have..
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Robert Bradley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4830
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| Posted: 23 July 2016 at 5:43pm | IP Logged | 10
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Just to give you a small sample of characters who have died and come back. The list includes all 7 of the the JLA's founders, all of the Avengers founders (if you include Captain America instead of the Hulk), three-quarters of the Fantastic Four, all of the Doom Patrol and nearly all of Alpha Flight.
Ant-Man Aquaman Banshee Bucky Barnes Batman Black Bolt Brother Voodoo Bullseye Cable Captain America Captain Atom Sharon Carter Colossus Count Nefaria Darkstar Doc Samson Doctor Doom Doctor Druid Doctor Octopus Dracula Drax Egghead Elasti-Girl Elektra Enchantress Eternity Firestorm Fixer Flash Nick Fury Ra's a Ghul Talia al Ghul Gorgon Garaviton Green Arrow Green Goblin Green Lantern Jean Grey Guardian Havok Haweye Hawkgirl Hawkman Hellcat Hercules Hobgoblin Human Torch I Human Torch II Iron Fist Iron Man Jackal Kang Karnak Korvac Kraven the Hunter Lightning Lad Loki Magneto Mandarin Maxwell Lord Lex Luthor Magik Marrina Martian Manhunter Metamorpho Mister Fantastic Mister Miracle Mister Sinister MODOK Molecule Man Moon Knight Moondragon Ms Marvel Mysterio Mystique Namorita Negative Man Nightcrawler Odin Jimmy Olsen Harry Osborn May Parker Alfred Pennyworth Madeline Pryor Psycoke Puck Punisher Puppet Master Henry Pym Quasar Rhino Robotman Rogue Betty Ross Thunderbolt Ross Sabretooth Scarlet Witch Shazam Silvermane Sinestro Snowbird Spider-Man Star-Lord Steel Baron Strucker Superboy Superman Swordsman Jason Todd Donna Troy Uncle Sam Ultron Vigilante Vindicator Vision Wasp Mary Jane Watson Iris West Wonder Man Wonder Woman Zeus
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Robert Bradley
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Joined: 20 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4830
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| Posted: 23 July 2016 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | 11
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It's been a worn out comic book trope for a long time. Time to give it an eternal rest.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 23 July 2016 at 5:50pm | IP Logged | 12
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Mind you, I seem to remember a 60s or 70s DOCTOR STRANGE issue where the entire world blew up. It was recreated by the end of the story/arc. Assuming that is canonical (or not), that means everyone in the Marvel Universe, at least on earth, died and returned.
Guys, help me out, which story was it? I remember it being reprinted in a black-and-white Marvel UK title. Story arc was titled "Planet Earth Is No More", but not sure if that was the original US title or just a headline that Marvel UK added. Story opened with Strange floating about in space among the debris of Earth.
Edited by Robbie Parry on 23 July 2016 at 5:51pm
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Topic Closed)
