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Topic: Magneto and Dr. Doom (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Gundars Berzins
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Posted: 27 August 2016 at 6:50am | IP Logged | 1  

After Doom and Magneto mine are da Red Skull, 
Loki, Ultron, Dark Phoenix.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 27 August 2016 at 7:04am | IP Logged | 2  

One of the elements of super-villainy and super-heroics for that matter that I like is that mastery over their own powers plays a large role in how threatening or menacing a character turns out to be.

Magneto is in absolute control of his power and imaginative in its use. He's ruthless and will use his power to achieve any ends he can conceive, up to and including mastery of the world and the death of the human race.

Electro, who is presumably fishing off the same pier into the same waters, will try to rob a bank. He doesn't have what it takes to be a villain on that same level. It probably isn't just attitude, discipline, and will. He probably has less power overall, but even if we assume that isn't true, and he can continuously draw more, manipulating all of the electricity around him the way Magneto seems to, he would still never be in Magneto's class because he doesn't possess the attitude, discipline, and will.

I'm sure at some point, someone will write the "Electro Triumphant!" story in which Max gets his head on straight and ups his game to Magneto-style levels, because, well, the story is right there waiting to be done, but for the length of that storyline, the character will be written completely out of character. He doesn't have the stuff. That doesn't mean he's not formidable. Doesn't mean he isn't murderous and a genuine menace to be taken down, but he isn't a World-Beater ala' Doom and Magneto.

Character is Destiny, as they say, and just because you can run doesn't mean you get to be in the Olympics. It takes a lot to get there, and not everyone has that in them.

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Brian Hague
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Posted: 27 August 2016 at 7:51am | IP Logged | 3  

As for who else is in the same class as Magneto and Doom, that's a tough call. Ultron would almost make it, but for the fact that he's newly created and "off" most of the time. You can't sit and ponder the death of the Earth if you're deactivated or in pieces. There is no Ultron headquarters or army of Ultron loyalists. He doesn't have the same sense of Brooding Evil to him. He's still a brawler and not a mastermind.

Loki conversely has had millennia to ponder his great works and how he will bring them about. His big problem as a villain is that he doesn't care much about Earth. See also: Dormammu & Nightmare, both absolute rulers of their respective dimensions (big places, dimensions), but don't overly concern themselves with what happens here. Loki has Nine Worlds to take over, and even though ours is one of them, its not one of the big ones. Loki dislikes Thor, much as Dormammu and Nightmare dislike Strange, but if not for those individuals, they'd hardly give the Earth a second glance.

Loki has another problem; One that he shares with Kang. The storylines conceived so far the character bunch up and tangle together until he really can't get out from under them. The Norse Myths give us a template of Loki's destiny and no matter how many times we wish Ragnarok away into the cornfield, he's still tied to it, conceptually. Also, he's been spanked by Odin so often, it's hard to take the guy as seriously as we should. 

While the initial idea of tying Kang to Doom was intriguing, it didn't go much of anywhere. Soon after, throwing in Rama-Tut and then the Scarlet Centurion and the Council of Kangs on top of them all (presumably with the Council of Pharaohs and Scarlet Council holding court somewhere as well), the guy got heavily de-uniqued almost immediately, and his big stories have mostly dealt with these tortured inter-relationships with his own alternate selves. He doesn't just come in with an unbeatable plan to defeat the Avengers, not just now, but for All Time, and then implement it... He has to outwit his future self, or gain support from his younger selves, or revisit this past adventure to take away a different result which he can bring to the Council only to find that his subtle change did nothing for himself, but did bring about the existence of Kang #243.2, the Happy Kang, who lives in Sausalito with Ravonna and the little Kangs, only attending Council meetings on weekends when he can sneak away from the ol' ball and chain...

He can never just show up and be KANG! Even if he does, the very structure of comic book storytelling as conducted nowadays will erase and write over the importance of anything he or the others achieves. The Red Skull recently had a storyline where he gained incredible mind-control powers and took over the entire world. It hasn't upped his standing as a Grandmaster-level villain because, yes, as once occurred with the Cosmic Cube, it takes a special kind of stupid to gain omnipotence and then lose it, but also because the storyline went nowhere, impacted nothing, and was taken out back and shot in the head as every comic book universe is these days, over and over again... I don't know if the next time the Skull showed up, Cap said, "Look out, everyone! He's got global mind-control powers!" He probably didn't because the Skull probably didn't have them anymore, just as he doesn't have a Cosmic Cube anymore. I'm okay with that, but it doesn't give the Skull the winning track record Doom and Magneto, World Leaders and Statesmen, have.

Who might rise to such a class? Naga, the sorceror who invented the Serpent Crown could, but again, he's not interested in the here and now, if he exists at all. He's Somebody Else's Problem, not our's. DC gives us Mordru, who ruled entire galaxies before setting his sights on our pitiful little Earth and winding up underground time and time again for his troubles. Ra's As Ghul runs a worldwide criminal organization and carries himself with the proper gravitas and command to be a Doom or Magneto even without their super-powers and sorcery. His organization exists in large part to serve his greater ends. The Kingpin, on the other hand, runs crime mostly in New York and parts of South America, and spends his time servicing and maintenancing his business interests. They are, in and of themselves, his end. He's not a world beater. He's a parasite.

Mr. Sinister and Apocalypse are game attempts at creating New Dooms, but they're still too vague in their ambitions and tied up in the thousand-and-one rubberbands of X-Men continuity. If Magneto hadn't come out of the gate so strong, he'd likely be the same, ensnared in storylines and plot contrivances he has to deal with before he can just, y'know, do something. Xorn, Lensherr, the Death of Genosha, and all of that rot have not done our guy any favors. 

Sinister and Apocalypse arrived with backstories, important for cementing a winning record in advance of their arrival on-panel. Magneto's was implied rather than shown, but no less effective for that. Both have power, but of what sort, I have no idea. The through-line is still kind of murky there. Organizations? Kind of. Apocalypse seems overly preoccupied with gathering a senior staff of four flunkies before he's willing to embark on any real ventures...

So, sketchiness works against you. Limited vision as well. You have to show up and want to be here, running the joint. If your interests are elsewhere, the readers' likely will be as well. You have to be established. You must have an organization of supporters, numbering in the thousands, already in place.

It ain't easy coming up with Grandmasters. Hell, the Grandmaster himself, for all of his Elder of the Universe schtick, isn't one.


Edited by Brian Hague on 27 August 2016 at 7:53am
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Lars Sandmark
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Posted: 27 August 2016 at 8:15am | IP Logged | 4  

Well said Brian.


Now while I agree with JB that Galactus is not villainous, he is in fact a threat.*



*like a meteor, sure, but still a threat with a capital T. (capital G ?)
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 27 August 2016 at 8:17am | IP Logged | 5  

Everyone's got a big one!  That is, each of the super-stars has at least one major arch-villain.  For Marvel, they are--

Dr. Doom (Fantastic Four)
Magneto (X-Men)
Ultron (Avengers)
Red Skull (Captain America)
Mandarin (Iron Man)
Loki (Thor)
Green Goblin (Spider-Man) (Sorry, Doc Ock, you never seem in control enough)
Baron Mordo (Dr. Strange)
Kingpin (Daredevil--Frank Miller stole him from Spidey)
Mephisto (Silver Surfer)
Thanos (Everybody)

Hmm...I notice I couldn't name the Hulk's major villain.  Abomination seems the obvious choice, but he's not smart enough.  The Leader is definitely smart enough, but was never that compelling.  I actually think Tyrannus would be the Hullk's best arch-villain, but we haven't quite seen that story yet.

I left off people like Galactus, Dark Phoenix, and Dormammu because, yes, they do seem more like "forces of nature"--threats, but not necessarily villains.  (Well, maybe Dormammu is a villain, but I've never really gotten a sense of his personality, so I tend to think of him as something "beyond.") 
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 27 August 2016 at 10:16am | IP Logged | 6  

Gonna echo those who mentioned Kang.

Shouldn't potential be included as an attribute? Kang has come close to doing some very dangerous things. Didn't he rule the world in a comic from about 15 years ago (for a short period of time?). Having mastery of time is really scary and I wouldn't cross him.


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Brian Hague
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Posted: 27 August 2016 at 10:20am | IP Logged | 7  

Well, okay, but according to Kang, you're really just counting Doom twice... :-)

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 27 August 2016 at 10:31am | IP Logged | 8  

Another thought about pervasive: the likes of Dormammu may not be pervasive in the sense he/it goes around battling all the major heroes, but he has a pervasive presence. Sort of. He's out there (like the Borg). He's an "elephant in the room" even when he's not personally bothering you.

I could be wrong.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 27 August 2016 at 10:55am | IP Logged | 9  

Powerful and pervasive... this makes me think of characters who have tremendous abilities and are always a consideration to their opponents (or even others). They're the ones that I expect to be mentioned when Reed or Professor X finds out that there's danger afoot.

Certainly Loki. In the Thor books I used to read, when anything occurred, his name came up first.

Mordo counts too. I'm rereading the original Dr. Strange run, and he is obviously Dr. Strange's arch-nemesis. Every story is not about Mordo, but he is always a suspect. And his magic, while not equivalent to Dr. Strange's, is potent enough that he should always be considered a threat.

I don't know his current status - I think he may be dead for a little while (tax purposes, perhaps) but Namor was always a great villain. Powerful, in control of a tremendous army, and filled with hate for the surface world. Even when he was a good guy, he was an uncertain hero at best.

I would echo those sentiments for the Hulk. Not a villain by any means, but a force to be considered, because he seemed to show up a lot - and when he showed up, trouble followed immediately.

Magneto is effectively portrayed as a constant threat, but as noted, the crap involving Magneto over the past 30 years (maybe more) have made him an uncertain opponent at best. I don't disagree with listing him - but lord, what they've done to a great villain at Marvel...

Galactus is a deadly adversary, but how often is he actually a threat? Five or six times? I'm not sure I'd call him pervasive, even though he does seem to hold some grudge against Earth.

I wouldn't include the Red Skull or the Kingpin. They're just men. In their own venues, they control a lot of power - but on the Dr. Doom/Magneto stage, they're puny. What would they do if Iron Man or the Hulk showed up on their doorsteps? Those battles are over in a moment.

Others mentioned...
Ultron counts, but he's not pervasive - he doesn't show up that often. But when he does, he is a full blown threat to the Avengers.
Dark Phoenix - she only appeared once, I think. Certainly a critical threat, and definitely pervasive (sigh), but I can't think of her as an ongoing threat.
Mandarin is a winner of a choice too. Unfortunately, the "evil oriental" stereotype is a little dated, even though I personally think that the Mandarin is still viable.
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Jason Larouse
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Posted: 27 August 2016 at 11:26am | IP Logged | 10  

What I wouldn't give to see the original unrepentant villain Magneto back.

I specifically remember them going down this road a long time ago but it didn't seem to stick. 

If memory serves, Magneto had gone back to being the badass villain he'd been in the past and was destroying all traces of the "fake" life he was living; he even murdered the people who'd created the false "Erik Lensherr" identity. 

It might have been Carlos Pacheco that was drawing X-Men at the time. I remember Magneto declaring something along the lines of "There is only Magnus now!" 

My initial Google search yielded nothing, but now I need to make sure I'm not mistaken.

*********

They've tried to do it a few times. The problem is that the next writer always comes in an undoes it. Magneto's characterization bounces back and fourth like a ping pong ball more than anyone else.

I think the issue you are thinking of is from the Joe Kelly/Steven Seagle era of X-Men.


Edited by Jason Larouse on 27 August 2016 at 11:27am
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 27 August 2016 at 11:28am | IP Logged | 11  

This thread is making me want to see a world where Doc Ock's mind takes over Electro's body and we wind up with a Magneto-class villain.
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Joseph Gauthier
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Posted: 27 August 2016 at 11:54am | IP Logged | 12  

You can't be wrong, Robbie!  This is all about opinion. And while it's sort of a different discussion, I like what you said about potential, because that's kind of part of the natural follow-up question.  Which characters have the potential to be on the same level as the top tier but are not, why are they not, and what would it take for them to get there-- assuming you remain true to the character.
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