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Paul Simpson Simpson
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Joined: 07 April 2009
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| Posted: 21 September 2016 at 5:36am | IP Logged | 1
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I've been ill for a week or so now. This gave me a lot of reading time to read so at one point I dug out some issues of "The Jack Kirby Collector". I love the history aspect of the magazine. The one thing that drives me crazy is the perpetuation of the idea that Kirby created Spidey. If you read "Origins of Marvel Comics" Stan makes it clear that Kirby did start "a" Spider-Man story, but was replaced by Ditko when Kirby couldn't pull off what Stan thought the strip should be. That's when Ditko stepped in. The strip was completely overhauled by Stan and Steve. Nothing but the name was left from the Kirby version, which Ditko has written in a essay in Roy Thomas' "Alter Ego". Ditko said that the Kirby version was essentially a rip off of The Fly. Ditko admits he has no idea who originated the name Spider-man. He even provided a sketch of Kirby's costume to illustrate the difference. Kirby is on record saying he created Spidey,but "gave" the strip to Ditko because he didn't have time to do it. It bothers me that someone who wanted to be given credit for his creations would himself take rightful credit away from another creator. Kirby deserves all the credit in the world for what he has created. The good and bad and god knows some of it was really bad (Dingbats of Danger Street). Am I the only one bothered by this claim,which flies in the face of Ditko's version ?
Edited by Paul Simpson Simpson on 21 September 2016 at 5:40am
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Ed Fahey
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| Posted: 21 September 2016 at 6:27am | IP Logged | 2
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Paul - if you haven't seen it take a peek at this guys study of Kirby's early Spider-man influence. It's very fascinating and well researched I think.
http://www.adelaidecomicsandbooks.com/kirbycase.html
One of the more interesting scenarios is that Kirby contributed Peter Parker, many of the supporting cast, and possibly the stories and villains for the first issues of the comic. None of which really contradicts Ditko's version. Its long but worth a look I think.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 21 September 2016 at 6:33am | IP Logged | 3
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None of which really contradicts Ditko's version.•• Are we all living in a Marvel comic? "We didnt actually SEE that, so it didnt really happen!" It must have been hard on Kirby, all those years, to have been instrumental in co-creating the Marvel Universe, and yet seeing the one character to which he made no creative contribution* become the one that really put Marvel on the map. But life isnt fair sometimes. ________________ * Except redrawing the first cover.
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Ed Fahey
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| Posted: 21 September 2016 at 6:54am | IP Logged | 4
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JB - did you scan the article I provided a link to?
I'm rather detached about it myself, but find it interesting nonetheless.It kind of makes sense Kirby might have provided Lee early story ideas who in turn passed them onto Ditko, who would have no idea they didn't come from Lee. The evidence provided is pretty clear this could have happened.
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 21 September 2016 at 7:50am | IP Logged | 5
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It kind of makes sense Kirby might have provided Lee early story ideas who in turn passed them onto Ditko, who would have no idea they didn't come from Lee. The evidence provided is pretty clear this could have happened.•• Except that in ORIGINS OF MARVEL COMICS Stan "Grab All the Credit for Himself" Lee told of first assigning the Spider-Man job to Kirby, getting something he didnt like, and then assigning it to Ditko. Both men worked in isolation, without, according to Stan, a whole lot of input beyond "teenager with spider powers." Stan, as usual, depended on the artists to do most of the plotting and character development. We now know that Kirby merely recycled the "Silver Spider" concept created by himself and Joe Simon, which that team ultimately turned into the Fly. The Ditko version is a stand-alone creation that has nothing to do with Kirby/Simon.
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Paul Simpson Simpson
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| Posted: 21 September 2016 at 8:27am | IP Logged | 6
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None of which really contradicts Ditko's version. Its long but worth a look I think. ************* It does very much contradict Ditko's version of events. Ditko points out that the Lee/ Kirby version does include a teen aged secret identity who lives with his uncle and aunt.The uncle is described as a "Thunderbolt" Ross type who treats the kid badly and the teen turns into a adult hero ala Captain Marvel. Not at all what saw print. Ditko also states that the story,costume and origin were completely revamped.by Lee and Ditko. The supporting cast didn't really gel until a few issues in so that claim is doubtful. Kirby also used the fact that he did the first cover as proof of his creating the character. However it is now well known that his was the second version of the cover. I just choose to take Ditko's word on this one.I state again that Kirby deserves credit for what he did do. Not what is plainly the Lee/Ditko version that saw print.
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Paul Simpson Simpson
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| Posted: 21 September 2016 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 7
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Read the article. I still believe Ditko. The writer was totally incorrect about Ditko's statements. Ditko pointed out,as did JB, that Kirby's Spider man was a recycled version of a lame hero he and Simon created earlier.
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 21 September 2016 at 9:35am | IP Logged | 8
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Neither Ditko nor I refered to the Simon/Kirby character as "lame."
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Matt Hawes
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| Posted: 21 September 2016 at 11:23am | IP Logged | 9
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The Fly was pretty cool to me. That noted, the Fly's origin has an orphan boy being granted the magical ability to become an adult superhero from a mysterious being. And Joe Simon wrote a biography where he included original pages that were written by Jack Oleck and drawn by CC Beck for "The Silver Spider." So, what Simon and Kirby did was a reworking of a character that was already borrowing from CC Beck's Captain Marvel character's origin.
The Kirby Museum website even acknowledges that Joe Simon was the driving force behind Simon-Kirby's version, The Fly.
So, yeah... I really think Jack was awesome, but I side with the Steve Ditko account of the history.
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Anthony J Lombardi
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| Posted: 21 September 2016 at 11:30am | IP Logged | 10
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The mental "masturbation" the author seems to be indulging in reads like a die hard Kirby supporter. Who wants to credit Jack Kirby with having created everything in comics. As if every creative idea could only have come from him.
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Matt Hawes
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| Posted: 21 September 2016 at 12:12pm | IP Logged | 11
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"The Jack Kirby Collector" is interesting in its bias. Many of its contributors would suggest that Stan Lee did nothing but put his name on a book, but then the same issue might have a scan of a page of original art, where Jack Kirby jotted down instructions on what was happening in the panels, only for Stan Lee to go off in another direction. The Stan Lee detractors would then voice complaints about how dare Stan ignore Jack's notes. So, did Stan contribute or didn't he? It seems to me if he went off in another direction than Jack's notes that would suggest Stan was coming up with his own version of the story based off the art, and not the notes. In other words, he was writing a story of his own.
I like to point out to detractors that the man (Lee) that they claim was such a credit hog was the same man who standardized credits in comic books. Before Stan Lee added those credit boxes (not to mention his writings in the "Bullpen Bulletins" that also gave credit to others, credits in comic books were rare and certainly not the tradition.
Edited by Matt Hawes on 21 September 2016 at 12:13pm
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Ed Fahey
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| Posted: 21 September 2016 at 12:15pm | IP Logged | 12
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I was pretty sure it was most all Ditko as well until now. The first few issue plots being very similar to a pre-Marvel Kirby run kind of opened my eyes that perhaps Jack had more to do with early Spider-man than I previously thought. Created him? No, I wouldn't say that. Co-creator credit? Maybe.
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Topic Closed)
