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Mike Norris
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Posted: 21 September 2016 at 12:23pm | IP Logged | 1  

It was interesting to read those early FF and Spider-Man LOCs. Stan seemed to really promote the idea that he and Jack and he and Steve were a team. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 September 2016 at 12:33pm | IP Logged | 2  

It was interesting to read those early FF and Spider-Man LOCs. Stan seemed to really promote the idea that he and Jack and he and Steve were a team.

••

Are you saying they were not?

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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 21 September 2016 at 12:43pm | IP Logged | 3  

That article is quite ridiculous.  The premise that Stan Lee would swipe plot points from the first three Private Strong stories and use them in the first three Spider-Man stories is quite implausible.  If Ditko was familiar enough with the Fly to point out similarities to it in the original Spider-Man origin, doesn't it stand to reason he'd also be familiar with Private Strong and notice any similar plot points Stan was feeding him?

But he didn't, because the alleged similarities do not hold up to scrutiny. Rather, the author distorts and mischaracterizes the plot points in Private Strong to exaggerate the supposed similarities.  Let's look at one example:

"While rushing off to test his newfound powers against a rampaging alien monster, The Shield, (Lancelot Strong), in his teen exuberance, ignores and leaves his best friend Spud in harms way.   After defeating the brute, the Shield returns to celebrate his triumph only to learn that the monster has killed Spud. The distraught Shield blames himself, and vows that it will never happen again."

First of all, there is no indication in the story that Spud is Lancelot Strong's "best friend."  He is described simply as a "friend."  The author inserts "best", presumably to exaggerate the emotional significance of Spud's death, so he can later falsely equate it with the death of Uncle Ben.

Secondly, Private Strong does not leave his friend Spud "in harm's way."  At the time he leaves Spud, there is absolutely no indication that Spud is in any danger.  They see a forest fire far off in the distance, and Private Strong heads for the fire, leaving Spud behind.  No reasonable person would conclude Spud was in harm's way.

Thirdly, it is not the "rampaging alien monster" that kills Spud, at least not directly.  Rather, he is "trapped by the forest fire" that the monster had created.

Finally, Private Strong does not blame himself for Spud's death.  His reaction is simply "If only the Shield had known" that Spud was in danger, he could have saved him.  In other words, he regrets the fact that he didn't know about the danger.  He doesn't regret anything about his own actions based on what he did know.  That's hardly self blame.

So, the supposed similarities are not really similar at all.


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 21 September 2016 at 1:09pm
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 21 September 2016 at 12:45pm | IP Logged | 4  

 Ed Fahey wrote:
] I was pretty sure it was most all Ditko as well until now. The first few issue plots being very similar to a pre-Marvel Kirby run kind of opened my eyes that perhaps Jack had more to do with early Spider-man than I previously thought.


Have you read the Private Strong stories that are alleged to be similar to the first few Spider-Man stories?  Because they really are not that similar at all. As I noted above, the author relies on mischaracterization and downright distortion in his description of the Private Strong plots, in order to argue for similarity that really is not there.


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 21 September 2016 at 12:46pm
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 21 September 2016 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | 5  

Stan's story and Steve's story kind of mesh, despite what the author of that article says.

Jack had a crack at it. Stan didn't like what Jack came up with and rejected Jack's work. He then gave the problem to Ditko. His solution was the Spider-Man we see in AF #15.

Consistent.

The version the author postulates is: Jack had a crack at it. Stan pretended to not like what Jack came up with (but secretly did). Then told Steve to change the design but keep Jack's other stuff that he had pretended to not like.

The simplest explanation works best, to my mind -- which is the version that Stan and Ditko agree on.
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 21 September 2016 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | 6  

The Marvel story I've always heard was that Stan Lee was ready to quit comics and his wife told him, if he's going to quit anyway, do them the way he wanted first.  So, we got the more realistic, relatable, flawed characters of the Fantastic Four and Peter Parker.  While Kirby leaned (and always would lean) more toward the Doc Savage model--larger-than-life, heroic, almost godlike characters.  I find it hard to believe that Kirby had anything to do with milquetoasty nerd Parker, who kept losing even after being granted amazing powers.

Not to mention that the Spider-Man outfit looks nothing like the shorts and boots, jumpsuits, or (later) wildly futuristic designs Kirby was known for, but did have that lean unique look that shared some of the same vibe as Ditko's designs for the Blue Beetle, the Creeper, the Odd Man, and others.

Since the recollections about these things are always hazy or contradictory, I think the proof is always in the stories themselves.
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Mike Norris
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Posted: 21 September 2016 at 5:55pm | IP Logged | 7  

Are you saying they were not?
******************************
Not at all. It's just a contrast to the Stan the Glory Hog spin one hears about. In issue 10 Stan makes the switch for the formal "Dear Editor" to "Dear Stan and Jack". And the address is "Lee and Kirby Fantastic Four..." and I think it remains so until Kirby leaves. The team attitude that Stan promoted help sell Marvel to the fans and created Marvel' funky image; 
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 21 September 2016 at 6:11pm | IP Logged | 8  

 Eric Jansen wrote:
...Not to mention that the Spider-Man outfit looks nothing like the shorts and boots, jumpsuits, or (later) wildly futuristic designs Kirby was known for...


The classic Spider-Man outfit is pure Ditko. No disrespect meant to Jack Kirby, but Jack never did seem to get the hang of drawing it.

And Peter Parker/Spider-Man's personality, which I believe sold the character as much as anything, that was pure Stan Lee writing.

I hate this whole thing where people look for a real-life villain in something like the creation of Marvel Comics. ALL those men were talented, and Marvel would not have been what it was without ANY of them.
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Robert Cosgrove
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Posted: 21 September 2016 at 7:09pm | IP Logged | 9  

We know from Simon that S & K studios devised a Spiderman, later renamed Silver Spider (or maybe it was the other way around), and that Kirby  brought the Spiderman logo and concept to Stan.  Not surprisingly, it was a lot like the Fly, because the Fly was the reworking, the published version, so to speak, of what had been the Silver Spider/Spiderman concept.  

Per Stan, Jack, Steve, Jack drew a few pages of Spiderman.  Here the stories diverge slightly.  Stan has (consistently, I think) said that Jack's version of Spiderman was "too heroic" and did not match "his concept."  (Odd, since Jack brought Stan the concept).  Stan said he then gave the book to Ditko, who drew the book in accordance with how Stan conceived it.

Per Ditko, he walked into the office one day and Stan told him about a book Jack was drawing called Spiderman.  Ditko, himself a comics fan, told Stan it sounded a lot like the old "Fly" character  (which had at that point only appeared a few years earlier).  I don't think Ditko has said how much time passed, but shortly thereafter Stan assigned Spider-man to him, giving him the pages Jack had drawn.  I draw the inference that Stan did not want to be accused of copying the Fly, or feared legal problems with Archie, and gave Ditko the book for that reason.  (Of course, its possible Stan's explanation and the conclusion I draw from Ditko's account are both true.  Clearly, from a public relations standpoint, Stan would not want to say that he took the book from Jack because Jack had brought him a rip off of the Fly).

However, it's entirely possible that Jack was rankled by Stan's oft-repeated story of how his version of the character just didn't pass muster with Stan.  At one point--I think in one of the interviews that appeared in the Jack Kirby Collector, but don't ask me where--Jack says, "If I drew such a bad version of Spider-man, why did Stan have me do the cover for the first issue?"  At the height of his dissatisfaction with Marvel, Jack tended to overstate his grievances, apparently never having heard that line of poetry that goes "anything more than the truth would have been too weak."  The "I created Spiderman" probably falls in that category.  In his more reflective moments, I like to think that Jack would have readily acknowledged that Ditko was Spiderman's artistic designer.

Based on the available evidence, I think Stan's contribution was:  1.  liking the Spiderman idea Kirby brought him;  2.  selling the idea of a Spiderman character to a skeptical Martin Goodman; 3.  recognizing (or perhaps checking and satisfying himself) that Ditko was correct in describing the Kirby concept as a lot like the Fly;  4.  solving that problem by taking the story from Kirby and giving the assignment to Ditko; 5. dialoging the pages plotted by Ditko, who designed, likely at Stan's request, a whole new costume and story.

As our esteemed host often has observed, lots of people have opinions about this, but few of them were sitting in the Marvel offices when the events went down.  All those of us who weren't there can do is draw what we consider to be reasonable inferences on the basis of the available evidence (and sometimes conflicting testimony).  It behooves all of us not to be dogmatic in our assertions, not to pretend a level of certainty that is not possible for us, and not to ignore the possibility that we may be wrong.  Still, Spider-man is the most important character creation in comics in the last half of the twentieth century; it's not to be expected that people would lack interest in, or fail to speculate, on how he came about.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 September 2016 at 7:29pm | IP Logged | 10  

Per Stan, Jack, Steve, Jack drew a few pages of Spiderman. Here the stories diverge slightly. Stan has (consistently, I think) said that Jack's version of Spiderman was "too heroic" and did not match "his concept." (Odd, since Jack brought Stan the concept). Stan said he then gave the book to Ditko, who drew the book in accordance with how Stan conceived it.

•••

What if we change the order slightly? Stan says he wants to do "Spider-Man." Jack goes thru his files and retrieves the Silver Spider pages. Polishes them up a bit, maybe. Shows them to Stan. Not what Stan had in mind. Enter Ditko.

That fits rather well with what Joe Simon told me, the only time I had the chance to speak to him.

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Paul Simpson Simpson
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Posted: 22 September 2016 at 5:38am | IP Logged | 11  

I hate this whole thing where people look for a real-life villain in something like the creation of Marvel Comics. ALL those men were talented, and Marvel would not have been what it was without ANY of them.
*************
When I started this tread the furthest thing from my mind was to portray anyone as a villain. I apologize if it seemed that way. I love Jack and a lot of his stuff. Kamandi was one of my favorite comics in the 70's. Second only to Spidey. The Stan is Satan stuff pisses me off, so I would never would want to do that to Jack. I totally agree that the talent of those men built a empire that endures to this day. MAKE MINE MARVEL!!!!!!  (At least until twenty years ago or so. It still breaks my heart to go to the comic book store and not buy the new Spidey )
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 22 September 2016 at 8:06am | IP Logged | 12  

I wonder if the Golden Age hero the Tarantula had any influence on Spider-Man's creation? Because he used a web-gun that fired nylon that he used to swing around, used suction cups to climb walls and hang from ceilings, and was referred to as a `spider man'. 
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