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Eric Ladd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 4506
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 5:22am | IP Logged | 1
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In democracy, I think participation is the only check and balance. The electoral college may have been a good idea when communication was limited, but not today. I have a hard time believing the majority of Americans wanted Rump. However, of the people that voted there weren't enough in key areas to stop him. If you don't vote then it is like voting for the winner. There are a number of reasons why voter turnout is low, but I can't fault democracy for letting this total ass into office.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15797
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 7:03am | IP Logged | 2
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The racist bastard without any morality can have a vote that is equal to a decent, wholesome person. How is that right? ------------------------------------------------------------ ------ Who gets to decide who has the right morals and therefore gets a vote?
Taking away someone's vote because you don't like the way they think is a road that leads to a very dark place.
Edited by Peter Martin on 30 November 2017 at 7:04am
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 7:32am | IP Logged | 3
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I didn't say the vote should be taken away, I am (hypothetically) talking about how wrong it is that some votes are equal.
Who decides on morality? Well, I don't use racist or homophobic slurs, but I know people who do. I've known of people who have advocated some horrible things (a neighbour I knew advocated forced repatriation of black people from the UK). Sure, he gets a vote, but it irks me that he does. I hate the thought of someone like him getting access to a ballot box.
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Fred J Chamberlain Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4018
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 7:38am | IP Logged | 4
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Robbie, while I am sickened by the current climate and the direction our society has moved in, as well as the blatant racism, classism etc in our country, initiating any type of moral or intelligence requirements is a slippery slope. “Those people” are an identified group that changes over time. Black, Irish, Muslim, Jewish, etc. we can’t go that way.
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 30897
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 7:59am | IP Logged | 5
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I have a hard time believing the majority of Americans wanted Rump.
******
We didn’t. Which is a point that he can’t seem to let go.
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Eric Ladd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 4506
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 8:36am | IP Logged | 6
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I would be more inclined to support mandatory voting than restricting who can vote. In theory, everyone is equal in the voting booth and I believe it should stay that way. I truly wish voters were more educated, discerning and skeptical with regard to politics, but those are just wishes. The moment we find a reason to prevent people from voting then we establish a bar that can perhaps be moved higher or lower in the future.
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Eric Ladd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 4506
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 8:38am | IP Logged | 7
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Brian, I completely understand, but many people didn't vote and those additional voices against the orange buffoon were sorely missed.
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Charles Valderrama Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4721
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 9:05am | IP Logged | 8
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I truly wish voters were more educated, discerning and skeptical with regard to politics, but those are just wishes.
**** I have similar wishes... more specifically, I wish the right to vote INCLUDED being properly educated on current issues/policies plus understand how the system works so everyone is well aware of how elected officials will effect our nation. Still, I'm well aware of how the lies told during the election process clouds one's judgment - but still voters should be able to make an educated decision and NOT just vote based on a person's personality/charisma/popularity.
-C!
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 11:38am | IP Logged | 9
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In the final analysis, the United States is (supposed to be) a free nation. So freedom of speech means any fucking moron can tweet what they want.
Voters can vote or not vote as they prefer.
The only qualifier to vote is to be an American citizen.
Voters don't have to have the least idea about candidates when they vote.
Had a large percentage of Americans voted (90%+), I have reason to suspect the outcome might have been different.. Had the popular vote been the qualifier, I'm certain that, whatever percentage voted,m the outcome would have been different. Had the United States more valid parties and qualified candidates, the outcome would have been different.
But when we have two "real" candidates and the selection is, quite legitimately, the lesser of two evils - people will choose not to vote. People will pick the candidate with emotional appeal. People will vote for the better liar.
Keith Olbermann pointed out in one of his analyses that right now, 10% of the Trump voters are dissatisfied with him. Had that margin applied in the election in the swing states, Trump would be a distant memory right now.
A lot of it is indeed the citizens' fault... but the way the game is set right now, the most qualified and capable candidates don't even seem to have a chance to be recognized. And "the lesser of two evils" is a hell of a crappy way to select a leader for a government.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14812
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 10
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Had a large percentage of Americans voted (90%+), I have reason to suspect the outcome might have been different.. Had the popular vote been the qualifier, I'm certain that, whatever percentage voted,m the outcome would have been different. Had the United States more valid parties and qualified candidates, the outcome would have been different.
——-
It bears repeating that if 80,000 people among Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania had voted for Clinton instead of Trump, the Electoral College would have gone in the other direction.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15797
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | 11
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I didn't say the vote should be taken away, I am (hypothetically) talking about how wrong it is that some votes are equal.------------------------------------------ But it's not wrong! The hypothetical point you propose is fundamentally undemocratic -- the notion that someone's vote should count for less than yours because you don't like the way they think.
Unless everyone's votes are equal, there's little point in having a vote, because the person who decides whose vote counts for less is the person deciding the election. Furthermore, there could be no reforms over time, because the Authority That Decides would always dictate what thinking was allowed to vote. That authority would be behaving as if it were infallible, proceeding on an assumption that its morality was the same as absolute morality.
Edited by Peter Martin on 30 November 2017 at 1:12pm
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 30 November 2017 at 1:24pm | IP Logged | 12
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It certainly feels wrong to me that someone who might have committed racially-motivated violence has a vote. Yes, he does. And, no, he shouldn't have it taken away from him; but it certainly sickens me that if, say, we had a black candidate standing in a local election here, that a racist, who had committed racially-motivated violence, has a vote.
Again, yes he has a vote and it shouldn't be taken away, but I certainly hate the thought of people like that having a vote. It's something that I find distasteful.
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