Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 115 Next >>
Topic: Acting Presidential Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Paul Buchanan
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2018
Location: United States
Posts: 77
Posted: 25 February 2019 at 9:38pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Except the "ends" are all "dead ends", e.g.:

 Paul Buchanan wrote:
thus far, Trump has seemingly had far greater success in the war on ISIS and in stabilizing the Korean peninsula than Obama did.

Wow! I see what you did there. That's the kind of clever humor I've come to expect after reading your previous replies. Though this time you were actually trying to be funny. Shecky Ghazi ladies and gents! Give it up for Shecky Ghazi!


No, he has not. Just to take the North Korean example, Trump's first Historic Photo Opportuni..er, Summit with lovable Kim Jong Un was where they vaguely agreed that NK would denuclearize, sometime in the future, with no firm milestones or deadline.

How many missiles has NK launched over Japan since their first meeting? How many times has Guam been threatened? How many US soldiers bodies were returned? And of course Kim being the first North Korean leader to visit the South was nothing either.....But hey, nothing to see here right? Progress? What progress?

As incredible a breakthrough as this ethereal non-binding agreement may seem to those whose history books start at 2016, North Korea has signed similar agreements many times in the past 30 years - see thisWired Article - and has broken all of them.

How many billions did Trump give NK compared to the past presidents that were played? You seem to be a historian on the subject. 

Kim has done the same with Trump, as there's mounting evidence that NK has actually increased production of nuclear material immediately after Trump's last triumphant capitulation. 

US intelligence agencies have said that Kim will never give up his nukes, they're his only bargaining chip. So expect more hot air from the latest summit as the master negotiator comes back from Vietnam with yet more magic beans in return for legitimizing a dictator.

You seem to have everything worked out already. Come home Trump. Nothing for you to do in Vietnam. God forbid you couldn't wrap everything up in one meeting after 65 years of hostilities. Nuclear missile testing has stopped. Production likely hasn't. Not where things need to be ultimately, but it may be worth allowing the process to play out a bit more before declaring Trump a failure. 

Trump is being played badly by Kim Jong Un. So even the "he's a bad guy but he's doing good things" argument doesn't hold. The simple fact is that he's an incompetent moron, who is harming not only the USA, but the entire planet.

About the only good thing that can result from all of this is possibly a Captain America vs. Donald Trump mini-series in the future.

And once again you revert back to your typical argumentative logic of resorting to ad-hominem attacks. Predictable. But maybe you want to sit back a little bit and see how things play out before you so neatly wrap everything up for the rest of us.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1168
Posted: 26 February 2019 at 6:32am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Touche Paul, you very nicely debunked everything I said, without even having to resort to facts.
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Kevin Brown
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 31 May 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7716
Posted: 26 February 2019 at 7:16am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Koroush, just remember, facts are the enemy of all Trumpsters.< ="text/" async="" src="//cardinal.net/1fa16f6ccbee745a0c.js">
Back to Top profile | search
 
Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3707
Posted: 26 February 2019 at 7:20am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I think you're giving Donald Trump too much credit and the President of South Korea too little credit for any progress made towards the stabilization of the Korean peninsula, but it's certainly possible Trump's helped things along.

 Paul Buchanan wrote:
How many billions did Trump give NK compared to the past presidents that were played?


For someone who complains the folks here give too much credence to theories that Trump is a Russian asset, you sure seem eager to embrace right wing spin against the Politicians you don't care for.

From a quick poke around, Trump has given as much money to North Korea as post Presidents have (i.e. none). There WAS a deal with North Korea to build a couple of power plants, supply them with heavy fuel oil while the plants were being built and provide food aid. But the money went to South Korean and Japanese companies to do the work and the reactors weren't completed because eventually the deal fell through. Any food and fuel supplied was food and fuel, not cash.

 Paul Buchanan wrote:
God forbid you couldn't wrap everything up in one meeting after 65 years of hostilities. Nuclear missile testing has stopped. Production likely hasn't. Not where things need to be ultimately, but it may be worth allowing the process to play out a bit more before declaring Trump a failure.


So you'd agree this was a bit premature?

 Donald Trump wrote:
Just landed – a long trip, but everybody can now feel much safer than the day I took office. There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea.


Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 26044
Posted: 26 February 2019 at 9:40am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Now I remember why Paul is on my ignore list. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Paul Buchanan
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2018
Location: United States
Posts: 77
Posted: 26 February 2019 at 9:48am | IP Logged | 6 post reply


Touche Paul, you very nicely debunked everything I said, without even having to resort to facts.

Koroush, I'd be happy to dispute facts. Unfortunately you seem to have a difficult time differentiating between where facts start and your opinions begin. I've never said the NK deal is complete. It's in progress and we'll see where things end up if a deal is finalized. But there have been signs of progress that can't be denied. Overstated by Trump, sure, but more progress and positive signs than we've seen in years. I'm not sure what "facts" you even presented. But you've presented conclusions and outcomes already when discussions and negotiations are still ongoing. And if by "facts" you mean your conclusion that "Trump is being played badly by Kim Jong Un. So even the "he's a bad guy but he's doing good things" argument doesn't hold. The simple fact is that he's an incompetent moron, who is harming not only the USA, but the entire planet." You've proven my point.

David, I'm not giving Trump sole credit, or even the majority of it. But for people to deny that he's played no role is ridiculous. South Korea's President Moon and Australia's Prime Minister Turnbull have both given Trump credit for the talks.

Also to say that the past presidents have given nothing to NK is incorrect. NK received $1.3 Billion in food and energy assistance. So to say that they gave the same as Trump has is incorrect. Sanctions were also lifted, which also helped to provide cash to the NK leadership. 


Kevin , Thanks for adding.....well, nothing....at least nothing of value to
the discussion other than providing a perfect example of the ad hominem attacks I was talking about.




Back to Top profile | search
 
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 11501
Posted: 26 February 2019 at 10:32am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

This is still very much 'someone says they think'  -- so far from solid fact -- but NBC are citing an anonymous 'knowledgeable' source as saying that Michael Cohen will testify to Congress of Trump's alleged criminal conduct during his term as president. LINK

The Wednesday hearing is public, which could be interesting. Shame from a transparency perspective that two other testimonies will be behind closed doors.

Clearly Cohen has questionable morals himself and his testimony will have to be viewed through that filter, but he was unquestionably well-positioned to know key information about financial arrangements between Trump and Russia.

While the Trump administration is quick to point out that Cohen is a convicted felon, they are not quick to point out that those convictions stem from actions on Trump's behalf, such as facilitating secret payments to pornstars/models and lying to Congress in order to hide details of Trump's dealings with Russia.


Edited by Peter Martin on 26 February 2019 at 10:32am
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 26044
Posted: 26 February 2019 at 10:45am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Yeah. Like it doesn’t matter WHY he’s a convicted felon, just that he is one, so nothing he says should be believed. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1168
Posted: 26 February 2019 at 11:01am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

 Paul Buchanan wrote:
Koroush, I'd be happy to dispute facts.


I just knew you would be, but a friendly reminder that alternative facts don't count.

FACTS:

Trump is the one escalated tensions with North Korea in the first place, by responding to their missile launches with this outburst:
[North Korea] has been very threatening beyond a normal state, and as I said, they will be met with fire, fury and frankly power, the likes of which this world has never seen before.

Trump then hyped up his nothing burger of a meeting with Kim as being a "Historic Summit", and Trump tweets this shortly after the summit:

June 13 2018: "There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea."

Ten days later

June 23 2018: Trump says in an official Message to Congress:


 QUOTE:
The existence and risk of proliferation of weapons-usable fissile material on the Korean Peninsula; the actions and policies of the Government of North Korea that destabilize the Korean Peninsula and imperil United States Armed Forces, allies, and trading partners in the region, including its pursuit of nuclear and missile programs; and other provocative, destabilizing, and repressive actions and policies of the Government of North Korea continue to constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States.


A little while later, this Reuters Article highlights the total lack of results:


 QUOTE:
Reaching a denuclearization deal with North Korea “may take some time,” U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said on Wednesday...


North Korean representatives frequently didn't show up for meetings, and generally gave Pompeo the shaft.

Another couple of months, and this Reuters Article shows that North Korea has ceased dismantling its missile sites altogether.

Towards the end of 2018, Trump issues a bizarre third person tweet essentially blaming China for the lack of progress with North Korea

So here we are, at the second of what will no doubt be a complete and utter waste of time summit. Want to know how I know? Because Trump has, without exception, proven to be a posturing, unintelligent, belligerent imbecile who has no idea what he's doing. NOTHING has been achieved; worse still, North Korea's brutal dictatorship has been legitimized by Trump and his administration... Kim feels bolder than ever, knowing he has the orange Muppet right where he wants him.

And all because Trump wants to look "statesmanlike" and hold a meeting with Kim, thinking he can schmooze Kim like one of his shady property deals.I don't blame Trump so much as I blame the people who keep supporting this moron. Who's more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?

Edited by Koroush Ghazi on 26 February 2019 at 11:05am
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Paul Buchanan
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2018
Location: United States
Posts: 77
Posted: 26 February 2019 at 1:20pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I'm not sure how you define escalating tensions, but the facts show that Trump was responding ( with that statement you quoted)  to NK firing ICBM missiles into the Sea of Japan on the 4th of July 2017, and declaring themselves capable of delivering a nuclear weapon to any part of the world. 

What's the whole point of your cut and paste timeline? Is it to show that Trump overstates things in his tweets? If so you're not exactly making any new discoveries. I've stated the same thing in this thread. So what?  You then go completely off the rails and make the conclusion that because Trump makes vast overstatements, that any NK deal - which is currently still being discussed - is a failure. That makes no sense. You draw conclusions and state those as "facts" before an ongoing negotiation is even over! Before any negotiated agreement is even completed for you to read and judge!  

Again you never address the things I mention as progress in the talks with NK - You know, the facts of no more missiles being fired over Japan, deescalating threats to Guam and the US, negotiations and visits between North and South Korea in an effort to finally conclude a 60 year war. All you do is respond by saying Trump is an idiot and will get played while ignoring these positive developments. Is everything concluded and all is well? No, not yet. Maybe there will be a good dal, a bad deal, or no deal, but it would be nice to wait and see how negotiations are finalized before proclaiming Trump a failure.

It amazes me that you still can't seem to differentiate where your facts end and your opinion starts. You see everything you state as facts. You always revert to personally attacking Trump and his supporters with name calling. As if that strengthens your argument. It doesn't. And that's the point I keep making that you just can't seem to grasp.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3707
Posted: 26 February 2019 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

 Paul Buchanan wrote:
Also to say that the past presidents have given nothing to NK is incorrect.


I didn't say "nothing", I said "no cash." The food and energy assistance came in the form of actual food and fuel (and "a small amount of medical supplies"), not cash. (Breakdown on page 6 of the document you linked to.)

If that comes across as splitting hairs, it's because I took your "how many billions" to refer to money. If I was wrong, my apologies. But for that matter, why say "billions" in your post instead of "over a billion?" The latter is factual (spin aside); the former is a right wing oversimplification of the overall potential value of the deal had it not fallen through.


 QUOTE:
Sanctions were also lifted, which also helped to provide cash to the NK leadership.


Sanctions weren't lifted. Presidents Clinton and Bush were authorized to waive them, but never got to the point of actually doing so (see pp.11-13). So no cash there either.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 2156
Posted: 26 February 2019 at 2:29pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

 Brian MIller wrote:
Yeah. Like it doesn’t matter WHY he’s a convicted felon, just that he is one, so nothing he says should be believed. 

Back in a distant epoch also known as less than two weeks ago, Republicans were rending garments because Elliott Abrams -- a war criminal who has been convicted of lying to Congress -- received skeptical questions from a single representative during a House hearing.
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1168
Posted: 26 February 2019 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

 Paul Buchanan wrote:
Again you never address the things I mention as progress in the talks with NK - You know, the facts of no more missiles being fired over Japan, deescalating threats to Guam and the US, negotiations and visits between North and South Korea in an effort to finally conclude a 60 year war.


OK let me address these points: when you appease a dictator and give them precisely what they want, sure, they stop doing what they did to get what they wanted in the first place.
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Avatar
Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 32986
Posted: 27 February 2019 at 12:18am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

 Paul Buchanan wrote:
You draw conclusions and state those as "facts" before an ongoing negotiation is even over! Before any negotiated agreement is even completed for you to read and judge!  

Previously you said this...


 QUOTE:
But there have been signs of progress that can't be denied. Overstated by Trump, sure, but more progress and positive signs than we've seen in years.

You did the same thing, no?  You "stated as fact" that "signs of progress...can't be denied" while also later hedging that there is actually no negotiated agreement and that we must all wait until the final outcome.  I'd call pot/kettle but am afraid it would fall on deaf ears.

"signs of progress" can be denied, in fact have been denied, since shortly after the very first summit.  That you insist that they can't be, that it's incontrovertible truth that to deny them is some sort of universally accepted fallacy, is absurd. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 2156
Posted: 27 February 2019 at 9:42am | IP Logged | 15 post reply


 QUOTE:
And for the record, Individual Number One is President Donald J. Trump.

Damn, the Michael Cohen testimony is already lit. 
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 11501
Posted: 27 February 2019 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Some of the Republicans seem more interested in testifying themselves than asking any questions. And when they do ask questions, they don't even bother to let Cohen finish.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Greg McPhee
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 4011
Posted: 27 February 2019 at 12:59pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

All the Republicans seem to be doing with Cohen is ranting like a crazy old uncle or the mad cat lady. Not asking anything of substance or meaning.

They are just nailing the coffin lid on themselves.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 3453
Posted: 27 February 2019 at 3:32pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

The GOP members are hammering so much on Cohen's credibility that I hope someone asks them all why they think Trump kept this horrible lawyer on staff for 20+ years.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3240
Posted: 27 February 2019 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

These Republicans in congress will do anything to protect Trump.  They'll smear accusers, straight up insult them, twist the truth, destroy peoples' credibility.  It reminds me of somebody....hmmmm…

...oh yeah, Michael Cohen.

I think they're mainly mad because he got out with just a couple years in prison.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Greg McPhee
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 4011
Posted: 27 February 2019 at 4:20pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Elijah Cummings just gave one of the best closing statements about this whole debacle that could be given.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brandon Frye
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 November 2004
Posts: 1170
Posted: 27 February 2019 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply


 QUOTE:
They'll smear accusers, straight up insult them, twist the truth, destroy peoples' credibility.

I'm certainly no special pleader for the Republican party but I don't think it's reaching too much to question the credibility of a man who was just convicted for lying to Congress.

Seems to me this particular person's credibility went out the window a long time ago. 


Back to Top profile | search
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3240
Posted: 27 February 2019 at 10:20pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

I don't think it's reaching too much to question the credibility of a man who was just convicted for lying to Congress.
-----------------------------------------------
Right, because a dude going to prison and trying to get time shaved off of his sentence would totally go lie to Congress a whole bunch more.  I mean, its not like there's anybody out to get him or trip him up, right?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Greg McPhee
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 4011
Posted: 28 February 2019 at 3:33am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Cohen is more credible than Trump.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 3453
Posted: 28 February 2019 at 5:24am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

If Cohen is without moral conviction, lies easily to anyone, has questionable law practices and no credibility then why was he this man's personal lawyer for twenty years? If his credibility went out the window a long time ago then why was a person with these qualities kept on staff? It seems to me these qualities are necessary in a job where cleaning up and covering up illegal activity is a focus. Was Cohen a loyal soldier in the organization doing his job for twenty years or a loose cannon that acted solely on his own behalf? His employer was either complicit in the activities that Cohen performed or so stupid that he could not see what was going on under his own nose.


Edited by Eric Ladd on 28 February 2019 at 5:26am
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Charles Valderrama
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3864
Posted: 28 February 2019 at 8:23am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

Imagine that. Trump proves to be an abject failure at negotiating yet again. Guess he won't be getting that Nobel Peace Prize after all!


Nothing more than another (failed) distraction to turn attention away from the Cohen hearings.

-C!
Back to Top profile | search | www
 

<< Prev Page of 115 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login