Author |
|
Fred J Chamberlain Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4018
|
Posted: 05 March 2020 at 5:37am | IP Logged | 1
|
post reply
|
|
There is a difference between passion and vitriol. There is nothing “good” about fueling and feeing the latter.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
|
James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7627
|
Posted: 05 March 2020 at 8:27am | IP Logged | 2
|
post reply
|
|
I'm sorry Andy, but no.
I've seen what the right is saying and I've seen what the left is saying.
Trump and his team are the ones abusing people and giving everyone a catchy insult name, blaming people who are 'the other', coining terms like 'alternative facts', openly acting in reprehensible ways, deliberately going to war with anyone who doesn't agree with their line.
Are there some results that could be seen as positive? Sure. No one could bat zero for zero with EVERYTHING they do. But they only count in an 'End justifies the means' world where the means can be as horrible and nasty as possible. And I don't want to live in that world thanks.
And the sad, worrying things is, it's not just Trump. It's the UK, it's Hungary, It's Italy, It's Russia and it's getting worse and worse and worse. People are being emboldened by this and using it as a launch pad for their own nasty behaviour. It's just horrible.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
|
Dave Kopperman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3152
|
Posted: 05 March 2020 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 3
|
post reply
|
|
Yeah, it's ultimately the normalization of all of it that I find the most dispiriting.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Eric Ladd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 4506
|
Posted: 05 March 2020 at 9:07am | IP Logged | 4
|
post reply
|
|
People like Andy won't think ill of people like Trump until they are the ones in the cross hairs. Being selfish and only getting concerned when something horrible is headed straight for them is a problem. I have lots of family and friends that call politics "sport", can't see how Trump is bad for the country, etc. etc. etc. and when I point out any horrible leader from history they cite "fake news" or claim, "that can't happen here". I will just parrot the sentiment of Matt Hooper and say "I'm not going to waste my time and argue with a man who is lining up to be a hot lunch". I think Trump supporters wouldn't have a problem with any of this until they are the one being separated from family and put in a cages.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Andy Mokler Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 January 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2799
|
Posted: 05 March 2020 at 1:49pm | IP Logged | 5
|
post reply
|
|
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/sep/13/joe-biden/ fact-checking-biden-use-cages-during-obama-adminis/
Well, this seems like a good example of what I'm talking about. The media commentary about Trump and "his" policies at the border don't seem to align with reality.
Kids were held in "cages" is all anyone hears or remembers. Conjuring images of dogs in crates or P.O.W.'s being tortured. But temporarily held in a chain link enclosure is not the same thing. It's dishonest if you ask me.
Enforcing a zero tolerance application of the laws that are already in place may be extreme or dispassionate but it's also resulted in lower illegal immigration.
It is sad that families have to be separated but I don't put that on law enforcement. Those families chose to take the risk and knew they were taking a risk. They chose to risk being separated from their children. I don't agree that Trump is a monster because he addressed the illegal immigration problem by enforcing the law.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
|
Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14816
|
Posted: 05 March 2020 at 2:28pm | IP Logged | 6
|
post reply
|
|
QUOTE:
Kids were held in "cages" is all anyone hears or remembers. Conjuring images of dogs in crates or P.O.W.'s being tortured. But temporarily held in a chain link enclosure is not the same thing. It's dishonest if you ask me. |
|
|
When I used to work in IT, we had an area in the basement to store obsolete equipment. It was a chain link enclosure that we referred to as... *wait for it* a cage. Because a chain link enclosure is a cage. Crazy.
But that's beside the point. You can go back and forth over semantics about what an enclosure should be called or whether children ended up in enclosures during the Obama administration. The real issue is that children were placed in those enclosure as a matter of policy in unacceptable conditions. But by all means, complain about how the word "cage" is unfair.
QUOTE:
Enforcing a zero tolerance application of the laws that are already in place may be extreme or dispassionate but it's also resulted in lower illegal immigration. |
|
|
Except it did not. Note that the "border crisis" increased /despite/ the family separation policy.
Border arrests are down now, but that's due to the "Remain in Mexico" policy. The sustainability of that is in question because it requires the cooperation of Mexico. < ="wayback1996-RTclose">×>
Edited by Michael Roberts on 05 March 2020 at 2:28pm
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
|
Posted: 05 March 2020 at 3:41pm | IP Logged | 7
|
post reply
|
|
Andy M: "Kids were held in "cages" is all anyone hears or remembers. Conjuring images of dogs in crates or P.O.W.'s being tortured. But temporarily held in a chain link enclosure is not the same thing. It's dishonest if you ask me."
Are you serious? You call it dishonest, but what about it is untrue? They were children. They were in cages. It's hard to mistake that image.
Dogs in crates or P.O.W.'s being tortured... it sure seems the same to me. In my opinion, a six year old taken from his parents and throw into a cage with no sanitary facilities, and as far as I hear, no medical facilities or treatment, food and water served in bowls more suited to animals... I guess your concept of torture and mine differ.
As for temporarily... how many of those families, after two years, have been reunited? CAN they ever be reunited? The Federal government seems none too urgent to address this matter.
This seems as heinous to me as killing babies. Except that these children have to survive.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 30904
|
Posted: 05 March 2020 at 4:09pm | IP Logged | 8
|
post reply
|
|
It's not called a "chain link fence match".
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14816
|
Posted: 05 March 2020 at 4:37pm | IP Logged | 9
|
post reply
|
|
It's not called a "chain link fence match".< ="wayback1996-RTclose">×>
------
WWE fans attending a cage match should demand their money back for being misled.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
James Johnson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 2067
|
Posted: 05 March 2020 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | 10
|
post reply
|
|
Read about Trump saying Coronavirus death rate is 3.4%: "I think the 3.4% number is really a false number. Now this is just my hunch, but based on a lot of conversations ... personally, I'd say the number is way under 1%."
Astoundingly F'N irresponsible.
Also, Trump blames his administration's failure to conduct testing for the coronavirus (less than 500 tests as of last Friday) on... OBAMA.
This clown has to GO.
**************************************
In 45s world, blame the brown guy. It'll rile up his supporters
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Andy Mokler Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 January 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2799
|
Posted: 05 March 2020 at 7:59pm | IP Logged | 11
|
post reply
|
|
I'm sorry, large areas surrounded by chain link(as opposed to walls or bars) isn't a "cage". Especially considering these areas were erected to deal with overflow and were temporary.
I think the zero tolerance approach is reasonable considering the problem at hand. And is it that unreasonable to think that some of these "families" were just using the kids to get released from custody? Under the old approach, that's exactly what was being done and not all of those being released were parents. They were "guardians".
Also, many of the kids that were detained were kids that were captured without any guardian.
And all of it stems from people trying to enter the country illegally. If they had not done that and not made the conscious decision to put their family at risk, they wouldn't have been separated. And that isn't even the policy any more.
They separated kids from those who were under arrest for a while and then they changed the policy. Illegal immigration is down, families have been reunited and they aren't separating them anymore. Why is any of that monstrous? It's a big problem and they took an approach that got modified along the way.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
|
Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14816
|
Posted: 05 March 2020 at 8:13pm | IP Logged | 12
|
post reply
|
|
And all of it stems from people trying to enter the country illegally. If they had not done that and not made the conscious decision to put their family at risk, they wouldn't have been separated. And that isn't even the policy any more.
——-
Yes. It’s not policy any more. So why do you keep trying to credit it for immigration being down? It’s not responsible for that. That big migrant caravan that Trump kept touting as a huge crisis was still coming despite the child separation policy and border arrests went down AFTER it ended. So why do you keep trying to link the two? As I said, what’s credited for illegal immigration down is the “Remain in Mexico” policy. Which can only last as long as Mexico will put up with it. All the child separation policy did was traumatize and mistreat a bunch of kids who had no control over what their parents did.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|