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Kevin Brown Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 8839
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Posted: 02 February 2017 at 9:18pm | IP Logged | 1
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One thing people need to realize is that Hillary got more votes than any white male Presidential candidate in history. It wasn't tepid voters, it was voters who went third party. Many of those voters were Sanders backers who had their noses out of joint. I know of 2 people (they're in Florida) who went 3rd party out of spite.
If 7% of those people who went third party went Dem, we wouldn't be dealing with the shit we're dealing with now.
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Steven Myers Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5619
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Posted: 02 February 2017 at 9:35pm | IP Logged | 2
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But the people who voted 3rd party did not WANT to vote Dem. Though no 3rd party candidate had a chance, what better time to vote against the establishment than when you don't like either major party candidate? I don't begrudge anyone voting as they wanted.
Polls showed the vote extremely close in key states, within the margin of error. The final "no toss-up" prediction had Hillary with 272 electoral votes. I don't think the results were that shocking. She really slipped in the last weeks.
And yes, she would be doing much better than Trump right now, plus the Rep congress wouldn't be letting her do anything anyway. Which is hopefully what happens to Trump, since he's pissing off more and more Republicans every day.
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 30833
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Posted: 02 February 2017 at 9:39pm | IP Logged | 3
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But did those 3rd party votes come from people that figured Hillary would win anyway? And would they have still voted 3rd party knowin how close he actually was to winning?
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Kevin Hagerman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2005 Location: United States Posts: 17995
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Posted: 03 February 2017 at 12:57am | IP Logged | 4
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So tragically idealistic -- Too many comic books, I guess.
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Neil Lindholm Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005 Location: China Posts: 4939
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Posted: 03 February 2017 at 4:16am | IP Logged | 5
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I guess Australia is now part of the Axis of Evil. You know, because everyone hates Australia.
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Brian O'Neill Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 November 2013 Location: United States Posts: 1964
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Posted: 03 February 2017 at 4:26am | IP Logged | 6
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Everyone voted third party is the reason Trump won. No matter how much of a bitch they thought Hillary was, voting for anyone else handed Trump the win. Those who wanted Bernie so badly, they couldn't vote for Hilary? Well, you are all...uh, what's Trumps favorite word?
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Kevin Brown Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 8839
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Posted: 03 February 2017 at 7:14am | IP Logged | 7
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It was definitely the third party voters that fucked America. Let's look at the states that Obama got in 2012, but Trump got in 2016:
Florida Iowa Michigan Ohio Pennsylvania Wisconsin
The vote totals for Gary Johnson in all the states were higher last year than in 2012, but significantly so in those 6 states.
In order, from how I have the states listed above, are the 2012 vs. 2016 vote totals for Johnson:
44,726 v. 207,043 12,926 v. 59,186 7,774 v. 172,136 49,493 v. 174,498 49,991 v. 146,715 20,439 v. 106,674
Overall, Johnson went from 1,275,971 votes in 2012 to 4,489,233 last year! And Jill Stein tripled her vote total 469,627 to 1,457,222.
8 million more people voted last year as compared to 2012. Hillary only got about 62,000 less votes than Obama did in 2012. Trump did get 2,000,000 more than Romney, but still lost by a large margin to Hillary. The rest were 3rd part and "other" (i.e. write in votes). Heck the "other" votes tripled as well.
I know this got long winded, but, yeah, I blame the people who wanted Bernie and decided to go third party instead. They could have made the choice to keep Trump out, but instead they threw a hissy fit when they voted. Numbers don't lie.
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Steve De Young Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 April 2008 Location: United States Posts: 3487
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Posted: 03 February 2017 at 8:22am | IP Logged | 8
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Numbers don't lie, but there's a basic logical problem here on two fronts.
First, the 'a vote not for Hillary is a vote for Trump' argument is flawed. The Right, of course, made the same argument, that 'a vote not for Trump was a vote for Hillary'. These arguments are logically identical both on premises and conclusions so for one to be true, they both must be true. And if they're both true, then a vote for neither Trump nor Hillary is a vote for both, i.e. the arguments cancel each other out, and amount to a very roundabout way of saying that if you vote for neither, you benefit the vote total of neither, which is kind of obvious.
Second, the assumption that 51% or more of the third party (and 'other') vote would have gone to Hillary in any alternate scenario has no basis in fact. Sure, there were a lot of traditionally Democratic voters who voted for Jill Stein. But there were also a ton of traditionally Republican voters who voted for Gary Johnson or that guy in Utah. What basis in fact do you have for believing that if there were no third party candidates on the ballot, and no write-in votes allowed, that those people would have done anything but stay home? And what basis in fact do you have that if forced to vote for one of the two candidates, more of that vote would have gone to Hillary than Trump?
Third and finally, what Hillary would be doing as President is a matter of sheer conjecture. While I disagree with pretty much everything Trump has done so far, how do you know that in the alternate world where Hillary had won, we wouldn't be, for example, at war with Syria right now, or very soon? I knew, going into the election, that Trump wasn't going to do things that I would want to see done, so I didn't vote for him. But I also had reason to believe that Hillary would do things that I would not want to see done, and so I couldn't in good conscience vote for her either. Of course, since I don't live in anything remotely close to a swing state, in my case, it didn't really matter.
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 30833
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Posted: 03 February 2017 at 8:25am | IP Logged | 9
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Goddammit. The fucking NRA makes me sick. After years of saying it's not the gun's fault, it the system's for allowing this person that has mental problems to have a gun, now they've made it easier for them to get one.
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 03 February 2017 at 9:16am | IP Logged | 10
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Well, Steve, I'm glad of that last bit anyway.
Your first point is asinine. "Everything real is real. Everything not real is also real, if only in counterpoint to everything that is. Therefore, everything both real and imaginary is real. Big smile." If you didn't use your vote in an effective manner to stop Trump, you threw it away and cleared the path for him to go right by you into power. And kissed his ass as he went past.
Faced with the prospect of true evil or a candidate you didn't like, who now somehow inexplicably might possibly maybe I dunno have us at war with Syria, you "in good conscience" did not do anything to stop evil because, well, huh, ma-a-aybe the other woulda' kinda mebbe been bad too? Based on what exactly? Sore sphincter from the DNC? Her child-sex pizza parlor?
Also, my post wasn't kind to those to stayed home either. Your hypothetical scenario where all the folks who voted third-party put their feet up and binge-watch "Grey's Anatomy" instead of defending their country doesn't clear them of responsibility in either case.
Thanks for clarifying and illuminating the points I so often make about bleating self-justifiers and the head-in-the-cloud crowd who will not learn from this and are steadfastly committed to making the same mistakes next time and every time after, content and sure of their good consciences every step of the way. After all, who cares about the country, the people in it, or those around the world when you have your tender consciences to think of first? Trump thanks you for your service.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15729
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Posted: 03 February 2017 at 10:29am | IP Logged | 11
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At least US ambassador to the UN Nikki Haley condemned Russia's involvement in eastern Ukraine. Those sanctions on Russia put in place by the Obama administration look like they're staying in place.
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 30833
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Posted: 03 February 2017 at 10:58am | IP Logged | 12
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Over 100k visas just got voided. As if they never existed.
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