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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 10 January 2021 at 10:31pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Peter,

Again, we disagree.  Impeachment is not about removing a president who has simply "betrayed the public's trust" - that statement is amorphous, subjective and if it alone were grounds for impeachment, every president who didn't share the same party affiliation with the House of Representatives would be impeached within their first 100 days in office.  Also, think about it, when does a politician NOT "betray the public's trust" at some point in their career?

You do however bring up a good point.  We have a method for removing president's who commit criminal acts - impeachment.  We have a method for removing president's who are incapacitated - the 25th Amendment.  What we lack is a method for removing president's who show signs of going off the deep end - become "mad with power" - become mentally unbalanced - show signs of psychopathy or sociopathy, etc.  

Some argue that the 25th Amendment is an appropriate remedy for this, some disagree.  That there is no consensus shows we probably need an amendment to clearly provide a remedy once and for all to remove a president who is simply no longer fit to serve - that judgement being reserved to perhaps a simple majority of BOTH the cabinet and both houses of congress.  

Marc
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Neil Lindholm
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Posted: 10 January 2021 at 11:11pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

How about a figurehead King or Queen, who has the power to remove someone immediately, similar to the Parliamentary system? 
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 11 January 2021 at 1:23am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

"...Is Trump any more unable now than he ever was?..."

The issue has been convincing others in the Senate and government (and American public) that using the 25th was legitimate. Last week proved to many who poo-poo'ed that notion that, yeah, he is really kinda nuts!

Peter, if you want, we can send Trump to you guys. ;-)


Edite to add: Just kidding... I wouldn't wish Trump on ANYONE.


Edited by Matt Hawes on 11 January 2021 at 1:24am
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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 11 January 2021 at 6:57am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Neil,

A figurehead King or Queen?  Aside from the obvious strict constitutional prohibition on ANY kind of monarchial figure - in our republican form of government who would go about electing or choosing a figurehead with this kind of power?  

Marc
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Neil Lindholm
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Posted: 11 January 2021 at 7:57am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Just change your entire system to a Constitutional Monarchy. How hard could it be? :)
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Carlos Velasco
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Posted: 11 January 2021 at 9:00am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I hope Neil is joking.

Here in Spain, we only have a Constitutional Monarchy because the dictator Franco, one of Hitler's allies during WWII even if Spain remained "neutral", restored it in 1978.

So we kind of have a democracy "thanks" to the former king, which allowed it. But what if he hadn't allowed it?

The former king is now in United Arab Emirates, where he ran away in August following the laundering money accusations.

The current king, his son, which should stay out of politics, often says things that are in line with the Spanish equivalent of trump supporters, refusing to acknowledge the diversity of our nation.

So yeah, I'm sure there's another, more democratic way to ensure the control of potentially mad presidents. Maybe some kind of Superior Committee or emergency voting process.

By the way, I watched the Capitol assault with fear. Trump supporters had been warning us for days that they had some secret maneuver and that "we will see it on January 6", but that took me by surprise. The lack of police made me fear a military intervention helping the rioters instead of fighting them. In Spain, all parties have explicitly condemned the attack except for one, the extreme right party Vox, which chose to use the "this is what happens when the left goes violent" rhetoric.


Edited by Carlos Velasco on 11 January 2021 at 9:15am
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 11 January 2021 at 9:04am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

When the Left goes violent?! That is some serious 180 degree interpretation. 
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Carlos Velasco
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Posted: 11 January 2021 at 9:08am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Yeah, far right supporters are using that around the world. They're comparing this assault to other, definitely more pacific demonstrations from the left (where no Capitol building was assaulted/no people died) and saying things like "white people are starting to rebel against the tyranny of minorities".

I don't like censorship, but I think what's happening with Twitter and Facebook will be very beneficial for the USA. It's clear the far right are basing their discourse in lies, so deplatforming them, while theoretically dangerous because "you should be able to win them in a debate", is a huge step forward and should bring some visible results in the short term.

Most people won't create new accounts in Gab, or the new social media that Trump creates, and will just relax and stay away from more crazy theories and accusations. Hopefully.


Edited by Carlos Velasco on 11 January 2021 at 9:13am
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 11 January 2021 at 11:43am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

When the Left goes violent?! That is some serious 180 degree interpretation. 

———

Trump supporters are convinced that the BLM protests consisted of Antifa rioting and burning down the cities for the entire summer. Despite any rioting mostly occurring during the first week, and a lot of violence occurring due to police escalation or the presence of counter-protestors and being inflicted /upon/ the BLM protestors. But the 93% of the protests that consisted of people holding signs and marching are characterized by the right as “burning down cities”. 
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 11 January 2021 at 12:02pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Republicans STILL objected to impeachment and (per Moscow Mitch's memo) a Senate trial of Trump would likely not officially begin until Jan. 20 or 21.

What a fucking spineless bunch they are. Pathetic.

-C!


Edited by Charles Valderrama on 11 January 2021 at 12:16pm
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 11 January 2021 at 12:03pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Marc, the words "betraying the public's trust" I paraphrased from Alexander Hamilton's description of impeachment. This is what he wrote about the powers of the senate in the Federalist Papers no.65:

"A well-constituted court for the trial of impeachments is an object not more to be desired than difficult to be obtained in a government wholly elective. The subjects of its jurisdiction are those offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or, in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust." [emphasis mine].
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 11 January 2021 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

An aside:

Having some issues on my tablet, I logged into the mobile site and got the first page of this thread. The very first post is about a tweet from Trump that said:

"The Theater must always be a safe and special place." (after Pence got booed at a performance of Hamilton, remember way back when).

Interesting contrast. The Theatre must always be a safe and special place. The Capitol? Well...


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