Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
Star Trek
Byrne Robotics > Star Trek << Prev Page of 11 Next >>
Topic: ENTERPRISE Revisited Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 13493
Posted: 07 February 2017 at 1:17am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

..."Damage".

Oh, man, I have mixed feelings about this one. On the one hand, it brings in the sort of moral dilemma that makes for good dramatic storytelling. On the other hand, it has Archer crossing a pretty big line (blatantly attacking a totally innocent alien ship and stranding its crew three years from home by stealing a warp coil, so that the damaged NX-01 can regain warp drive and complete its mission to stop the Xindi). 

This one makes me think of DS9's "In The Pale Moonlight" (where Sisko fabricated evidence to draw the Romulans into the war against the Dominion, in a riff on the Zimmerman Telegram from World War I), which is still one of the best post-TOS episodes of STAR TREK ever filmed. "Damage" covers similar territory, but it feels a lot more contrived and a lot less effective. I think that a stronger, less burned-out writing staff could really have done something with this story concept. As it stands, it feels like yet another forced, Archer Who Will Do Anything To Stop The Xindi stunt, and one designed to try and give the show a bit more edge.

Oh, and T'Pol has a drug addiction, in addition to Mind-Meld AIDS. So, yeah, they're still trying to give her something dramatic to play with. 

This show never ceases to amaze me with its constant missed opportunities and increasingly desperate attempts to generate drama and interesting characters.
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 106489
Posted: 07 February 2017 at 9:10am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I almost -- almost -- felt sorry for ENTERPRISE. Of all the TREK iterations, it was the one that had thrust itself most deeply into the shadow of TOS. By its own choice, of course. And, there sympathy begins to melt away, as it chose to address this by undermining TOS wherever possible.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Joe Boster
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2988
Posted: 07 February 2017 at 5:39pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Demons/Terra Prime.  (now one more to go!)

If I didn't watch this I would have had no idea that a 1/2 Vulcan is possible. Aliens go home/earth first. Like that hasn't been done dozens of times in past 4 seasons.  What would we ever do without you! I am glad it did't make it 5 seasons. Having watched 4 seasons in a little over a month I think I am as burned out as the writers. And way too much time spent on earth this season. 

++

This show never ceases to amaze me with its constant missed opportunities and increasingly desperate attempts to generate drama and interesting characters.
---

I agreee with this. It seems like there could be something interesting right underneath the surface of the whole show. Like maybe if you read the book it would better.

I notice the credits say based on Star Trek by Gene and then created by Berman and Braga. Like the X-Men was based on JBs Days of Future's Past. They both show the same fealty to the source material. 

Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Jim Lynch
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 532
Posted: 08 February 2017 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

isn't Harbinger the one where Reed and Hays fight? As much as I enjoyed T'Pol's bare ass, I really like the fight scenes. For me it gave Reed some teeth.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 13493
Posted: 08 February 2017 at 11:02pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

At the same time, though, the sad truth is that the characters don't feel very character-y, despite attempts to give them quirks and backstories.

I mean, look at poor Mayweather. He got an entire episode focused on his family and backstory, but he still comes across as a virtual cypher, with very little to do, on a per-episode basis.
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Marten van Wier
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 August 2015
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 336
Posted: 09 February 2017 at 4:35am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I find the characters in general very bland and very poorly developed.
I haven't watched all of Enterprise (I only watched parts of Season 1 and 2, and then Season 4 on DVD), but I find none of them very iconic or memorable or someone I would connect to.
I just don't really care what happens to them, what difficulties and victories they experience during the journey.

So on that the stories themselves need to be memorable which they sadly are not either (Oh, I liked a few episodes of S2 and a lot of Season 4 but I would not call it essential Star Trek)

As for Mayweather, what was suppose to be a character who had been "out there" (this already undermines the premise of the show of the Enterprise being the first human deep space exploration mission) he had little to really add. Heck not even advice or suggestions based on the experiences of the Boomers who had already met a number of alien species.

Mayweather was a glorified extra, I hate to say it; "The token black guy".
The producers/writers could have just "cycled" the helmsman position, putting other men and women at the navigation/helmsman console during the episodes.

The character actually getting storylines seemed more like reminder on the producers' side, "Oh yeah, we also have this guy, I guess we should give him something to do as well as otherwise he is just on the background."


Edited by Marten van Wier on 09 February 2017 at 4:35am
Back to Top profile | search
 
Joe Boster
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2988
Posted: 09 February 2017 at 12:40pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

This is the format established in TNG. You got a Data episode, a Riker episode and so on.Which kinda worked because you got to know the characters first and then they get the feature.  In Enterprise this seems forced. 

There really is little to do on a per eposide basis. To quote Matt LeBlanc from "Lost in Space": ..and the monkey pushed the button"

Too many crew is the part of the problem and not really picking a combo to use consistently. Instead of Kirk, Spock, Bones and Random crew (maybe scotty, may be sule may be random guest star) you get Archer and Random named crew. Plus you have to have Phlox in there somewhere. (2nd Billing and all)

It's hard for me to really compare apples to apples:

you have this massive thing called star trek TOS/TAS/and 6 movies +pop culture. And born in 69 wathcing TOS over and over in syndication which makes 3 seasons seem like a lot more.  

vs, 4 seasons of ENTERPRISE which sort of limped off into the unknown. It couldn't even end without some help from TNG.
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 106489
Posted: 09 February 2017 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

There's still a part of my brain that wants to tell the story of how the crew of the NX-01 wiped themselves out of existence, retroactively.

And heroically, of course!

Back to Top profile | search
 
Joe Boster
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2988
Posted: 09 February 2017 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

That is a story I would love to read! Probably a bit outside the scope of New Visions?

I keep trying to read other creators Star Trek comics, but it feels like a superhero book rather than Star Trek. 
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 13493
Posted: 11 February 2017 at 1:55am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

..."The Council" and "Countdown".

As the third season wraps up, we get two very suspenseful and not-boring episodes to lead us into the climax. This is really good, solid, dramatic stuff. Some of the best episodes in the series' run. There's a real sense of urgency, stakes, and danger. Again, stuff like this makes me pine for a GOOD version of this show, and one which fully realized its potential. And, y'know, didn't overwrite, ignore, or dump on TOS.

Heck, in a riff on JB's idea, I think this last leg of the Xindi arc could have made a good series finale, perhaps with even one or all of the main characters dying for the greater good. The point, of course, would be to underscore the heroic sacrifice which made it possible for the Federation and Starfleet to flourish in Kirk's time. It could have been brilliant, if executed properly. If even one main character didn't make it to the end (and I nominate Hoshi, since they were sorta headed in that direction, with her being kidnapped, drugged, and forced to help the Reptillians), it would have given the Xindi arc a lot of extra dramatic weight, because of the consequences resulting from the crew's victory.

...and then we get to "Zero Hour". While seeing Sarris get his comeuppance is highly satisfying, the rest of the Xindi arc's resolution feels rather flat and bland, no doubt due to the fact that the finale was written by Berman and Braga.

The actual ending of the episode is totally bonkers, and feels like some kind of last-ditch effort to create a bizarre, nonsensical mystery in order to keep people interested (and the show from getting cancelled). Instead of a proper wrap-up to the whole Xindi arc, we get the total non-sequitur, "To Be Continued" ending of Archer surrounded by Nazis and the Master (from BUFFY).

Setting aside the fact that I have some vague recollections of how the fourth season began--with Nazi-themed BUFFY aliens altering history (...and I recall it being terrible), this is still a major "What the ****?" ending. Almost enough to completely ruin the goodwill that the previous two episodes generated.

Friggin' ENTERPRISE. Wasted opportunities and bad decisions galore, I tells ya. I was actually enjoying myself, and then they went and took it away from me. Sigh.


Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Marten van Wier
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 August 2015
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 336
Posted: 11 February 2017 at 8:58am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Plus Nazis suddenly appearing is also rather cliche.
I know, Hollywood loves Nazis because they are such clear and easy villains. But give it a break damn it!

How about if instead Archer and the crew had found themselves on Earth after the Third World War and First Contact with the Vulcans never happened with as a result Earth never recovered?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 24339
Posted: 11 February 2017 at 9:05am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

There's still a part of my brain that wants to tell the story of how the crew of the NX-01 wiped themselves out of existence, retroactively.

###########

Do it!

Back to Top profile | search
 
Rob Ocelot
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 December 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 557
Posted: 11 February 2017 at 2:01pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

<JB> There's still a part of my brain that wants to tell the story of how the crew of the NX-01 wiped themselves out of existence, retroactively.

And heroically, of course!

Back in 2004/5 I had the urge to create an animated ENT series along the lines of TAS, using vocal snippets taken from ENT and the appropriate Filmationesque sound effects and music.  The final episode would have accomplished exactly what you just described, in something akin to THE COUNTER-CLOCK INCIDENT -- only with the ENT crew reverting to babies, then puddles of semen, and eventually disappearing altogether.

50 years later: the derelict NX-01 would be found by Commander April... 

<cue TOS opening credits>


Back to Top profile | search | email
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 106489
Posted: 11 February 2017 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

In my version it's Kirk and the gang who find the derelict NX-01. The ship's log reveals what happened to the crew, in parallel with some threat to the NCC-1701.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 106489
Posted: 11 February 2017 at 8:17pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

I keep trying to read other creators Star Trek comics, but it feels like a superhero book rather than Star Trek.

You've hit on something that has bugged me from the beginning with most STAR TREK comics, and that is that they tend to be STAR TREK COMICS. The writers lapse into comicbook style storytelling, and the artists fall into similar traps.

Sad thing is, the comic book format can be used so effectively to tell expanded stories, not being limited by budget, but so often the stories seem more suited to Marvel or DC characters, with STAR TREK awkwardly folded into the mix.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Joe Boster
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2988
Posted: 11 February 2017 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Greg, the Xindi finale, really left a bad taste and The BUFFY Nazis reinforce this, and really cast a shadow on season 4. 
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 13493
Posted: 11 February 2017 at 10:39pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

In my version it's Kirk and the gang who find the derelict NX-01. The ship's log reveals what happened to the crew, in parallel with some threat to the NCC-1701.
+++++++++

If the Powers That Be wouldn't allow it (and they surely wouldn't), then do it as an April Fools' issue of NEW VISIONS, please!

Although...this makes me wonder if it would be possible for you to do such a story, with the caveat that all of the toys would have to go back in the box (via time-warping or some such plot device) by the end of it. Which would defeat the whole point of it! Hmmm.


Edited by Greg Kirkman on 12 February 2017 at 12:50am
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 6782
Posted: 12 February 2017 at 12:21am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

In a sense, the shunting of Archer and the NX-01 into a parallel timeline has already occurred and has been in place since the beginning. Enterprise debuted after the Borg went back in time in First Contact and have direct ties to the Bad Robot era Star Trek through at least two distinct paths; "Scotty's" mention of Archer and his dog in film 1 and the existence of an NX style ship in film 3. 

Meanwhile, there is nothing to suggest the existence of the NX-01 in either the TV series or the Original Series films history and much to contradict it, the ships on display in the ST:TMP rec room, for instance. This continues on into the TNG era series and films. None of Picard's historical models or wall hangings of previous Enterprises are the NX-01. Also, the ship's computer in "Relics" has no knowledge of Archer and co.

This strongly suggests that the TV series Enterprise and Abrams' films are the result of the "First Contact" Borg incursion into the past creating a parallel timeline which would have had no effect on TOS or early TNG. 

Archer and co. were unknown to Kirk or Picard because, really, they were never there to begin with, and only exist in the world where Earth met the Borg during our pre-warp flight era. So far the only piece of evidence that I can find that says otherwise is the photo of the Movie-era Kirk and co. found in Spock-Prime's personal effects in Bad Robot's film 3.

We don't need to erase the NX-01 from TOS' past. It was never there.


Edited by Brian Hague on 12 February 2017 at 12:25am
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 13493
Posted: 12 February 2017 at 12:47am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

Meanwhile, there is nothing to suggest the existence of the NX-01 in either the TV series or the Original Series films history and much to contradict it, the ships on display in the ST:TMP rec room, for instance. This continues on into the TNG era series and films. None of Picard's historical models or wall hangings of previous Enterprises are the NX-01. Also, the ship's computer in "Relics" has no knowledge of Archer and co.
+++++++++

Here's the thing though--it's all a dirty, dirty cheat. In "Relics", the Enterprise-D computer says that "there have been five Federation ships with that name". In other words, NCC-1701, then -A through -D.

The NX-01 predates the founding of the Federation, and is therefore not a Federation starship. So, the existence of the NX-01 was technically a "reveal", not a contradictory retcon. Its existence takes advantage of the loophole created by the wording: "Federation ships". 

In DS9's "Trials & Tribble-ations", however, it's said that there were six Enterprises, with the sixth being the then-brand-new NCC-1701-E. In this instance, the omission of NX-01 from that count is a little more conspicuous, since the "Federation" qualifier was not used.

There's also the appearance of Riker and Troi (in-between scenes from "The Pegasus") in the ENTERPRISE finale. If the ENTERPRISE timeline is really an alternate universe, then there would have to be alternate, ENTERPRISE-timeline versions of (at least) the TNG crew, to the point that they even exactly parallel "our" TNG crew for at least one specific episode's worth of story (the afforementioned "Pegasus").


...and, by golly, I just can't bring myself to refer to NX-01 by its actual name. It feels wrong!
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 106489
Posted: 12 February 2017 at 4:25am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Not to mention confusing.

Anyway, my little "story" allows Archer and his crew to have had all the adventures viewers saw, but to have been (heroically) erased from the timeline retroactively. This is why Kirk and subsequent Federation folk -- and computers -- have no memory or record of them, without contradicting anything.

Of course, none of this contemplation would be necessary if Archer's ship had simply been called something other than Enterprise. (We'd still have the problem of the show trying to out-first Kirk & Co. at every turn, but it might have seemed less OBVIOUS. Maybe.)

Back to Top profile | search
 
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 13493
Posted: 12 February 2017 at 11:01am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

As I have noted, the thing which set me against ENTERPRISE before it even premiered was the name of the ship. From a marketing and branding standpoint, I understand (although their eventually changing the show's name to STAR TREK: ENTERPRISE indicates that the creators felt it wasn't working), but in-universe, it really doesn't work.

And, on a fundamental level, it reeks of the fannishness which has taken over the franchise. The deification of the Enterprise name takes away from the verisimilitude of the whole thing. The whole idea was that there's a whole fleet of ships which have amazing adventures, and TOS just happened to focus on the Enterprise. Having the name be assigned to the "flagship of the fleet" every few years is soooo fannish. It also really irks me when people retroactively refer to NCC-1701 as "the flagship of the fleet", when it most definitely was not.

This is a classic example of something that's important to--and beloved by--the fans eventually becoming important within the fictional universe itself. The Enterprise was the focus of TOS, and the characters referred to the ship and crew as the best in the fleet, but that shouldn't necessarily make it so, in-universe. Just because Kirk calls Spock the best First Officer in the fleet doesn't mean that he actually was, etc. 

Who knows? Maybe the chief engineer of the Lexington was way more of a miracle worker than Scotty, or maybe the CMO of the Hood would think that McCoy is a total incompetent. Just because we fans love the Enterprise and her crew doesn't mean that they should automatically be The Absolute Best at Everything, y'know? Especially for every generation of Starfleet! Can't there be one Enterprise and crew which is...average? 

(Snarky side-note: if the Abramsprise (said to be the flagship of the fleet) and her crew are the best that NuStarfleet has to offer, then I shudder at the thought of how the lesser ships and crews operate.)


Edited by Greg Kirkman on 12 February 2017 at 11:04am
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 106489
Posted: 12 February 2017 at 11:15am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

I'd love to do an issue of NEW VISIONS that took place entirely on another ship. Unfortunately, the problem of "casting" is pretty much insurmountable.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 13493
Posted: 12 February 2017 at 11:36am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

How's that, exactly? I get the feeling that more than a few people (be they actors or not) would volunteer, gratis, for photoshoots, just for the chance to be in a STAR TREK story!
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 6782
Posted: 12 February 2017 at 12:52pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Greg, I knew about the "Federation ships" explanation, but the NX-01 was nevertheless a Starfleet vessel and was captained by the man who went on to found the entire Federation himself. Seems like the computer should know about it. And, as established in that horrifyingly awful final episode, the ST:TNG computers actually would have detailed records of that ship and her crew, regardless of its pre-Federation place in history. The previous explanation that the ship would only know about and playback Federation vessels no longer works.

So, what we're left with is that Riker and Troi's appearance aboard the holographic recreation of the NX-01 took place after First Contact and therefore exists in the separate timeline that film created. We know that there is a near-duplication of Picard and his crew in that timeline because of the Kurtzman-Orci comic book prequel to the Bad Robot film which everyone involved swears is canon. That gives us a parallel TNG crew and a "Spock-Prime" as well as lots of room to move around to help explain why the Bad Robot film's universe is so far off-model PRIOR to Nero and Spock-Prime's "temporal incursion." 

It also helps this interpretation of events that there is nowhere in "Pegasus" that those Riker and Troi scenes can be fit. Riker reaches his decision quite differently in that episode, so once again the ass-covering by the creators covers nothing and exposes altogether too much. We must be looking at a parallel version of those events. Just as there's a parallel TNG crew, there must have been a parallel TOS crew, as we see from "Spock-Prime's" photograph and "Spock-Prime's" very existence. It would also help clear up the issue of why Nimoy looks directly at Chris Pine, who looks very little like Shatner, and practically gasps his name in astonishment while later he looks at Simon Pegg who looks nothing at all like James Doohan and does it again. However they look in that photo, "Spock-Prime's" shipmates must have looked different in their youth than the characters we saw on television.

Again, nothing suggests the existence of the NX-01 in any TOS episode or movie and early TNG disputes their presence as well. It's only after First Contact any argument for their inclusion can be made and we know absolutely that they DO exist in the Bad Robot timeline. We're stuck with two timelines anyway. We may as well limit the NX-01 series to just the one where it actually fits.

Confusing, yes, but the simpler, heroic self-erasure story would actually serve to bring Archer and co. into the past of TOS where the evidence would indicate they've never been in the first place.

And Greg? I wouldn't want to be the one who has to shoot a large number of friends and fans under the correct lighting conditions and focus, all "acting" to fit the script, for a New Visions comic. Are we going to head-swap all of them into Starfleet uniforms or will many of them wear their own costumes? How well is that going to play? Also, absent the TOS characters, the premise of the book would seem rather "bait-and-switch" that month. Considering how much we want TOS fans to find and embrace this book, would it be ideal for somebody's "first issue" to have so little to do with the original crew? "Yeah, I finally tried that New Visions thing... Kirk and Spock were hardly even in it!"


Edited by Brian Hague on 12 February 2017 at 1:10pm
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 13493
Posted: 12 February 2017 at 1:17pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

I don't disagree with any of that. As I said, it's a dirty cheat. The 1701-D computer mentions "five Federation ships", but doesn't bother to mention or inquire about pre- or non-Federation ships, despite the NX-01's pivotal role in Earth history. And Archer's incredibly-Mary Sue-ish destiny of co-founding the Federation.

I, for one, am perfectly happy with ENTERPRISE and the Bad Reboot movies being quarantined within their own little universe.


As for the notion of casting a non-Enterprise issue of NEW VISIONS, I didn't say it would be easy, but I think it would be possible, at least under limited conditions, like a fun little one-shot, or maybe a backup story (like, say, the story of the Exeter's ill-fated crew, after Captain Tracey goes rogue). As you note, by the very nature of it, such an issue probably wouldn't go over so well in terms of fan appeal/sales. Perhaps the most feasible way to craft such a project would be to do a proper TOS story which guest-starred another ship, and featured relatively limited "screentime" for the guest ship's crew. Something akin to "A Scent of Ghosts", which featured the Yorktown and Commodore One.

It's fun to dream, though!



Edited by Greg Kirkman on 12 February 2017 at 1:25pm
Back to Top profile | search | email
 

<< Prev Page of 11 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login