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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 25 October 2017 at 5:05pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Poe, whether added late in the day or not, dowsnt really matter when, is said to be and shown to be, the best pilot around. Not once, but twice and it is he that delivers the killer blow to Starkiller base

Finn does have major ties to Rey I agree. His motivation is to get her back but he has growth throughout the movie - conflicted Stormtrooper, fear of being found out, wants to run away but ultimately finds motivation to get directly involved. Even prepared to go one on one against Ren.

++++++++

Neither of these guys really have arcs, though. Poe obviously couldn't have one, since he was written back into the story fairly late in the game. Finn, on the other hand, wants to run and hide for pretty much the entire film. He falls for Rey immediately upon meeting her, and his heroism, such as it is, comes from his wanting to rescue her. Because he's sweet on her. That's pretty much his main motivation. 

His being a Stormtrooper who defects is actually a great idea for a character, except that his reasons for defecting make no sense, given that he somehow made it through the ranks as far as he did, despite an aversion to killing innocents. You'd think that someone with his particular qualms would never been put on active planetside/landing duty. He says he was a janitor, and you'd think they would have kept him doing that, if he wouldn't prove to be useful in combat. After all, the First Order is controlling enough to know he didn't fire his weapon when ordered to, so you'd think that their training prodecures would have weeded him out if there'd been even a hint of potential hesitation or disobedience.

Anyway, his instant crush on Rey sort of a really-badly-developed retread of the subtext in STAR WARS, with Luke falling for Leia's hologram and wanting to help her. The difference, of course, is that Luke didn't really know for certain that Leia had been captured and was in mortal danger. The reason he goes with Kenobi is because his family is dead, and he knows that the Death Star plans must be taken to the Rebellion. It wasn't all about a girl.


On a structural level, TFA fails miserably at assembling a core ensemble in the way that STAR WARS did, despite faithfully ripping off so many other elements. STAR WARS forged Luke, Han, and Leia into a close unit who bonded over shared war experiences. In TFA, there's the overpowered Rey, then Finn, who does what he does because he's hot for her, and then Poe, the hot pilot. You don't really get a sense of camaraderie between them. Not that this was a requirement of the film, but it is one more reason why the film feels hollow, to me. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 25 October 2017 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Conceptual, I have no problem with someone developing an instant crush on Rey!
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 25 October 2017 at 5:22pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Oh, Daisy Ridley is cute as a button! No criticism, there!
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 25 October 2017 at 7:45pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

He falls for Rey immediately upon meeting her, and his heroism, such as it is, comes from his wanting to rescue her. Because he's sweet on her. That's pretty much his main motivation. 

----

In a franchise built on an homage to the pulp tradition, that's as pulpy a character motivation as you can get.


Edited by Michael Roberts on 25 October 2017 at 8:08pm
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 25 October 2017 at 9:16pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I don't disagree with that, but it's part of an overall, cumulative effect of everyone in the movie either loving, admiring the talents of, or coveting the power of this one awesome, female character.

I think the fact that Luke, Han, and Leia bickered with each other just as much as they loved each other was part of the charm. And, yes, Rey and Finn bicker, but the undercurrent is that he's hot for her, and she either doesn't care, or is oblivious to it. They go on an adventure because the script contrives one for them, with any number of coincidences that are employed to turn Rey into a marketable Awesome Female Jedi within two hours of screentime.

As I have noted, this whole issue makes me uneasy, but I feel it needs to be broached. These are dangerous times that we live in. People are becoming so deeply entrenched in their viewpoints and are so hypersensitive about anything perceived as "offensive" that reasonable discourse and compromise are slowly draining away. I can't help but see so many of my favorite fictional properties become less and less about well-crafted, escapist entertainment, and more and more about social and political agendas. 

Even more worrisome is the "GHOSTBUSTERS Effect", where legitimate criticism of a story and characters is dismissed and written off as sexism coming from stereotypical White male nerds. I personally have no issue with strong roles for females and minorities. It's a good thing. I don't take issue with the message it sends. What I do take issue with is political agendas seeping into escapist entertainment and becoming more and more all-consuming, and legitimate criticism of art being dismissed as sexist and/or racist ranting of nerdy man-children.

And, politics aside, what's most important to me is good storytelling and good characterization. Daisy Ridley is a charming young actress who I like a great deal, but I don't think her character is very well-written, and is basically there to serve a corporate agenda, rather than serving as an interesting and well-realized character. But, then, anyone going into these new STAR WARS movies thinking that they aren't being made solely to make money for Disney hasn't been paying attention.

Is the character serving the story, or is the story serving the character? That's what it kinda comes down to, for me. I can't help but agree with those who say that people would be much less forgiving of Rey and TFA if she'd been played by a male actor. But, because a female lead in a STAR WARS film is ostensibly "progressive", a lot of people seem to have turned a blind eye to the flaws in the writing and presentation of the character and the story. Just my opinion, of course. Believe me, if you knew me in daily life, you wouldn't expect to find me at any He-Man Woman Haters Club meetings. I'm just not a fan of extremes in either direction, politically-speaking.

I just can't shake the feeling that people are so desperate to see women and minorities in leading roles, that they don't care about niceties like good writing and storytelling. 

I also think that this new film is going to be the make-it-or-break-it moment for the Disney films. It could very well end up course-correcting in a way that makes me feel better about the future of the franchise. Personally, I think it's gonna be more of the same. I haven't even decided if I want to see the thing, but I'll probably have to, in order to have an informed opinion. In which case, I'd need to find a way to score a free movie ticket, so I don't have to feel guilty about voting for a movies I'm not really behind.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 25 October 2017 at 9:50pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Even more worrisome is the "GHOSTBUSTERS Effect", where legitimate criticism of a story and characters is dismissed and written off as sexism coming from stereotypical White male nerds. I personally have no issue with strong roles for females and minorities. It's a good thing. I don't take issue with the message it sends. What I do take issue with is political agendas seeping into escapist entertainment and becoming more and more all-consuming, and legitimate criticism of art being dismissed as sexist and/or racist ranting of nerdy man-children.

-----

We've gone around this a few times, but I still think this is unfair. If a female character succeeds, then she's an example of how well written a female character is when you focus on the writing instead of a political agenda. If a female character fails, then she's an example of what happens when you focus on a political agenda over writing a good story. Don't you see the subtle sexism there? Can't a female character succeed or fail in the same way a male character is allowed to succeed or fail?

There's more chaff than wheat in the movie industry, and audiences are aware of this, but somehow if it's a female or minority story, the bad gets blamed on political agendas rather than it being the Hollywood norm.


Edited by Michael Roberts on 25 October 2017 at 9:51pm
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Jozef Brandt
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Posted: 26 October 2017 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply


If a female character fails, then she's an example of what happens when you focus on a political agenda over writing a good story. Don't you see the subtle sexism there?

I don't think this is true at all.  It's very clear when a movie fails because of political baggage.  Ghostbusters, for example, was political from very early on.  (We know this thanks to the hacked Sony emails).  All of the press during production was politically tinged, the marketing was politically tinged, and when the bad reviews started hitting, the reviewers were judged and responded to almost solely based on politics.  

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 26 October 2017 at 4:36pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I don't think this is true at all.  It's very clear when a movie fails because of political baggage.  Ghostbusters, for example, was political from very early on.  (We know this thanks to the hacked Sony emails).  All of the press during production was politically tinged, the marketing was politically tinged, and when the bad reviews started hitting, the reviewers were judged and responded to almost solely based on politics.   

----

I think you are making my point.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 26 October 2017 at 4:36pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

We've gone around this a few times, but I still think this is unfair. If a female character succeeds, then she's an example of how well written a female character is when you focus on the writing instead of a political agenda. If a female character fails, then she's an example of what happens when you focus on a political agenda over writing a good story. Don't you see the subtle sexism there? Can't a female character succeed or fail in the same way a male character is allowed to succeed or fail?
++++++++++++

Here's the thing, though: within the last few decades' worth on genre films, there have been any number of strong female characters who have represented legitimate progress in that area. The Bride, Buffy, Ripley, etc. Those characters were well-written, and weren't in-your-face-Feminist. They had personalities, made mistakes, and became iconic.

I don't think Rey is well-written, and I think Disney has really, really been pushing a female-centric STAR WARS in the films, cartoons, and merchandising. So, why does Rey get a pass?

Unfortunately, the political baggage is there, now. I don't ever recall The Bride or Ripley being criticized as poorly-written or serving as part of an agenda. They were legitimate, three-dimensional characters who broke barriers, in terms of female leads in genre films.

Aside from being a leading Female Jedi, what has Rey actually done as a character, besides serve as some kind of marketing tool? Is she actually a character, or more of a neo-Feminist symbol?
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 26 October 2017 at 5:21pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply


 QUOTE:
Here's the thing, though: within the last few decades' worth on genre films, there have been any number of strong female characters who have represented legitimate progress in that area. The Bride, Buffy, Ripley, etc. Those characters were well-written, and weren't in-your-face-Feminist. They had personalities, made mistakes, and became iconic.

And if all things were equal with those movies other than those female characters being poorly written, you are saying that no one would blame the filmmakers for foisting a feminist character on them?


 QUOTE:
I don't think Rey is well-written, and I think Disney has really, really been pushing a female-centric STAR WARS in the films, cartoons, and merchandising. So, why does Rey get a pass?

Who says Rey gets a pass? This issue is you blaming Rey being poorly written (I don't agree) on Disney's agenda, rather than Rey just being poorly written. You can't conceive of J.J. Abrams writing Rey as a Mary Sue if the character were male? Look at his Kirk.


 QUOTE:
Unfortunately, the political baggage is there, now. I don't ever recall The Bride or Ripley being criticized as poorly-written or serving as part of an agenda. They were legitimate, three-dimensional characters who broke barriers, in terms of female leads in genre films.

And you're making my point, because at the time KILL BILL was released, Tarantino was describing the movie as a feminist statement and being about girl power. If people ended up not liking KILL BILL, they would have been complaining about his agenda.


 QUOTE:
Is she actually a character, or more of a neo-Feminist symbol?

How is Rey a neo-Feminist symbol? She's a female character. She might be a wish-fulfillment character. But so was Luke.


Edited by Michael Roberts on 26 October 2017 at 5:22pm
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 26 October 2017 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

And you're making my point, because at the time KILL BILL was released, Tarantino was describing the movie as a feminist statement and being about girl power. If people ended up not liking KILL BILL, they would have been complaining about his agenda.
++++++++++++++

There may have been an agenda at work, but it didn't come at the cost of good writing and storytelling. Making a Feminist statement with a strong female lead is one thing, but bending story and characters in service of that statement is something else.

Look at Michael Burnham character in DISCOVERY, everyone keeps telling her how awesome she is. Even when they take her to task, they immediately follow up the statement with something about how talented she is. The characters are constantly building up the female lead for the sake of a building up the female lead, as with Rey.

I think a well-rounded character who has actual human foibles is more interesting and more inspirational than a character who is awesome simply because of gender, and is all things to all people.
++++++++++++++

How is Rey a neo-Feminist symbol? She's a female character. She might be a wish-fulfillment character. But so was Luke.
++++++++++++++++

Luke was a wish-fulfillment character, but he was a CHARACTER. He grew and changed, made mistakes, and followed the Hero's Journey template. He was far from perfect, especially at the start. Heck, the original concept was that he was basically the nerdy loser of his peer group.

Aside from lip-service paid to her lost family, Rey speaks droid, is a mere scavenger who can somehow fly unfamiliar spaceships, can fix the Falcon and impress Solo, doesn't need anyone to help her or rescue her, can survive a lightsaber duel with someone who has actually had Jedi training (unlike her), and uses the Force without any training. Oh, and she's given several of the most beloved items in the STAR WARS universe by people who literally just met her.

That all goes beyond "wish-fulfillment", I think.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 26 October 2017 at 7:43pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply


 QUOTE:
but bending story and characters in service of that statement is something else.
 

I agree. Where your argument falls apart is your insistence that because you think that Rey is a weak character that TFA was bent to service an agenda. 


 QUOTE:
Heck, the original concept was that he was basically the nerdy loser of his peer group.
 

And in the final product, he ended up finding that the old man he had befriended was a great general, finding out that his father was a heroic Jedi Knight, impressing the beautiful princess over the much cooler bad boy, and single-handedly destroying the Death Star over much more experienced Imperially trained pilots.


 QUOTE:
That all goes beyond "wish-fulfillment", I think.

And if Rey had done all that and been male, the character would just be the typical fan-fictiony character that has shown up in everything from the EU books to the video games. No one blames an agenda for those. Its just the usual fanwank. 
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 26 October 2017 at 8:06pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Its not like Rey was just some mouse fighting against Rens cat. It was established earlier in the film she knew how to fight and take care of herself in a battle. 
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 26 October 2017 at 8:16pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

I agree. Where your argument falls apart is your insistence that because you think that Rey is a weak character that TFA was bent to service an agenda.
+++++++++++++++

The other characters all go out of their way to make her look good, pine over her, hand over lightsabers and ships and droids to her after having only just met her, etc., etc. How is that not bending the characters and the story to service her?

Heck, we even have the nonsense of Luke/Anakin's lightsaber "calling" to her. Not-Yoda has barely known her for ten minutes, and is already handing over a rare weapon with some major history attached to it. The established rules of Jedi needing to be trained and ligthsabers NOT possessing Force-powers have been tossed out in service of the character.

The friggin' Chosen One of the prequels had less innate Force skill, and far fewer people putting blind faith in him and his abilities!

+++++++++++++

And in the final product, he ended up finding that the old man he had befriended was a great general, finding out that his father was a heroic Jedi Knight, impressing the beautiful princess over the much cooler bad boy, and single-handedly destroying the Death Star over much more experienced Imperially trained pilots.
++++++++++++

It's a false equivalency. Luke finds out that he has a bigger destiny ahead of him, yes, but he still has to work for it, learn from his mistakes, and deal with put-downs from Solo and others. Pretty much everyone except Kenobi treats him like a whiny child and a lowly farmboy.

Also, he's established numerous times in dialogue as an experienced pilot, so it's not an out-of-the-blue thing when he takes an X-Wing into battle against the Death Star. And, even then, he barely makes it (by making use of the Force, and then only after at least some brief training by Kenobi), and wouldn't have made it at all, but for Han's surprise return to give him a chance to make his winning torpedo shot.

Luke had to deal with trials, tribulations, and losses before he could win the day (and the overall trilogy).

What kind of message does it send when Rey doesn't really have to work to accomplish what she does, doesn't make mistakes, doesn't need help, and literally has everything handed to her?


I'll again cite this year's WONDER WOMAN film as how to do it right. Wonder Woman has been a Feminist character since Day One, but her film depicts her as an actual character. She has an arc, she makes mistakes, and she learns and grows by film's end. She and Steve Trevor are equal partners, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. She's not just some perfect heroine to be worshipped. She's an engaging and likeable character with flaws (borne mostly out of naivety and good intentions).


Michael, I gotta say that I'd like to buy you lunch, sometime. This reminds me of a high school debate club. Annoying, yet stimulating. I admire your tenacity, and I think we've gotten some good points on both sides to come out of this ongoing argument. Kudos.

At the very least, we're keeping this thread alive, because no one else seems particularly eager or excited to discuss THE LAST JEDI, which is a mere seven or so weeks out...

Edited by Greg Kirkman on 27 October 2017 at 9:35pm
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 26 October 2017 at 11:04pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Hey! Im eager to discuss these things as well you know :-)
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 26 October 2017 at 11:44pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

 Greg wrote:
...No one else seems particularly eager or excited to discuss THE LAST JEDI...


Not much to discuss, really, except dissecting a two and a half minute trailer to no end. ;-)
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 27 October 2017 at 1:09am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Remember the days before endless, 24/7 hype and speculation? When you'd be made aware of a film's existence via a trailer or two, and then just go and see it? 

Edited by Greg Kirkman on 27 October 2017 at 1:09am
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 27 October 2017 at 1:22am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

The friggin' Chosen One of the prequels had less innate Force skill, and far fewer people putting blind faith in him and his abilities!

----

They just did not appreciate his midichlorian count!
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David Spurlock
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Posted: 03 November 2017 at 9:01pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

The more I think about TLJ, the less sense it makes from what the previews have shown. Why is Rey training with Luke? She's already proven to be the most powerful force wielder, EVER! She easily defeated Kylo Ren while using a lightsaber for the first time. So, what can a loser like Luke Skywalker teach the most powerful non-jedi jedi in the galaxy? Of course I'm being sarcastic, but that's where they've gone with this superficial plot.



Edited by David Spurlock on 03 November 2017 at 9:02pm
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 04 November 2017 at 9:45am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

The more I think about TLJ, the less sense it makes from what the previews have shown. Why is Rey training with Luke? She's already proven to be the most powerful force wielder, EVER! She easily defeated Kylo Ren while using a lightsaber for the first time. So, what can a loser like Luke Skywalker teach the most powerful non-jedi jedi in the galaxy? +++++++++

So the washed-up hero of the old movies can validate and reinforce just how awesome she is, in case anyone doesn't get it.

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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 06 November 2017 at 4:07pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

She easily defeated Kylo Ren while using a lightsaber for the first time.

****

Really? That simple,huh? Or was it already established that Rey could handle herself in a fight and Kylo Ren was badly injured by Chewbacca and NOT fully trained himself?? (Obviously, everyone could see Rey was Force sensitive and perhaps that's why she was given Luke's lightsaber to deliver to him.)

MAYBE this is WHY many aren't particularly eager or excited to discuss THE LAST JEDI here. So many negative/dismissive comments here when there's evidence of a bigger plot line.

-C!



Edited by Charles Valderrama on 06 November 2017 at 4:41pm
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 06 November 2017 at 5:07pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Luke had to deal with trials, tribulations, and losses before he could win the day (and the overall trilogy).

What kind of message does it send when Rey doesn't really have to work to accomplish what she does, doesn't make mistakes, doesn't need help, and literally has everything handed to her?


Wait... both Luke and Rey in their first appearances had this same lightsaber handed to them without proper training... and everyone WAS cheering for Luke because Obi Wan (and Leia to an extent) felt he was destined for greater things. Heck, he even got Han to come thru for him and  fly in to help the rebels at the end of the first movie! Don't even make me bring up Luke's "lucky" shot that destroyed the Death Star! 

When we "meet" Rey, she's a scavenger doing what she can to survive before Finn stumbles upon her. By the end of TFA, she's tasked with searching out Luke and getting him out of exile for the sake of the galaxy. Seems like "growth" to me so far!

Luke and Rey had/have similar journeys as has been addressed, and the argument seems pretty weak to compare her character to Wonder Woman... whose movie was designed to have a beginning, middle and an end, while Rey's journey is broken into three parts.

-C!
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 06 November 2017 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Stop trying to make us not want to see this, Kirkman!
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 06 November 2017 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Stop trying to make us not want to see this, Kirkman!
+++++++++++++

Hey, I don't have any Jedi mind-trick powers! Do as you please!
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 06 November 2017 at 5:24pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

Wait... both Luke and Rey in their first appearances had this same lightsaber handed to them without proper training... and everyone WAS cheering for Luke because Obi Wan (and Leia to an extent) felt he was destined for greater things. Heck, he even got Han to come thru for him and fly in to help the rebels at the end of the first movie! Don't even make me bring up Luke's "lucky" shot that destroyed the Death Star!
++++++++++++++

Except that Luke didn't use the lightsaber in combat until after he'd received intensive Jedi training, and, even then, Vader pretty easily defeated him.

And Luke's "lucky" shot was him tapping into the Force so as to have the proper intuition and timing to make that shot, and then only after some training with Kenobi. He wasn't performing telekinesis, Jedi mind-tricks, or winning lightsaber duels with ZERO training, as Rey did.

Heck, by the time of EMPIRE (three years later), he'd only barely managed to begin employing telekinesis.
Rey? She Force-pulled a lightsaber into her hand after only a few days of setting out on her adventure, and, again, with ZERO training.
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