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Luke Styer
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Posted: 23 February 2017 at 8:45am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

 John Byrne wrote:
Ah, well. Since Khan is not really available for use in STNV, perhaps further discussion of this topic should go to another thread.

Seems fair.


 QUOTE:
]Keep in mind that from the beginning there was no suggestion that anybody would "keep an eye" on Khan and his people. At the end of "Space Seed" Spock muses that it would be interesting to return a century hence, to check their progress, but there is nothing more than that.

Agreed. The sheer volume of the Federation would be such that follow-ups on any but the most critical situations would probably not be practical, and the fate of fewer than a hundred "colonists" with no space-going capability seems far from critical.  And that's even assuming that Ceti Alpha V was located within the Federation, which I'm I'm not sure was completely clear.

Edited by Luke Styer on 23 February 2017 at 8:46am
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Luke Styer
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Posted: 23 February 2017 at 9:27am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

 Greg Kirkman wrote:
Now, I don't subscribe to the notion that Kirk screwed up, either by failing to check up on Khan, or failing to report on the matter to Starfleet, but a lot of people seem to.

Kirk is thought not to have reported on the matter to Starfleet?  I don't suppose we see an on-screen report, but At the very least there is a log entry in the episode in which Kirk talks about the difficulty of deciding what to do with the now-prisoners.


 QUOTE:
First and foremost is Chekov and Khan recognizing each other, when Chekov hadn't yet joined the series at the time of "Space Seed". This one is easy enough to write off, simply by saying that he was aboard during the late first season, but was not yet a Bridge officer.

I really don't understand the "objection" to Chekov and Khan recognizing one another.  It's regularly stated in Star Trek that there are hundreds of crew aboard the Enterprise, yet in no single episode do we "meet" or even see anywhere near that number.  When we do meet new members of the crew, surely we're not expected to believe they sprung fully formed into existence the moment before they appeared on screen.


 QUOTE:
More problematic would be that Chekov didn't bother to mention that Khan was imprisoned one planet over from where the Reliant crew believed they'd be surveying--Ceti Alpha VI,

Exactly.  It either makes Chekov look foolish for not mentioning the Botany Bay incident when the Reliant headed into the Ceti Alpha system or makes Terrell look foolish for being caught completely off guard.  And this much, at least, could have been avoided by not having Chekov and Khan recognize one another.


 QUOTE:
why Reliant didn't notice that an entire planet was missing.

This, though?  I don't understand how a surveying mission doesn't include getting a count of the planets in a system.


 QUOTE:
The TWOK novelization dealt with these questions thusly--Chekov had simply forgotten about Khan, after fifteen long years

That's weak sauce.


 QUOTE:
and Reliant's crew did note the discrepancy in the number of planets, but attributed it to faulty data from an automated probe of the Ceti Alpha system, many decades prior.

This I'll buy.


Edited by Luke Styer on 23 February 2017 at 9:28am
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Luke Styer
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Posted: 23 February 2017 at 9:37am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

 Anthony J Lombardi wrote:
From Khan's point of view Kirk did screw up. That much is conveyed in the film. Watching the film there was nothing to contradict what Khan said. That part bothered me. I don't like the idea that Captain Kirk screwed up.

Khan is (a) clearly out of his mind, and (b) the bad guy.  I'm not sure we were expected to share Khan's point of view.


 QUOTE:
I don't expect that Kirk would keep tabs on Khan. But I don't doubt that he would have informed Starfleet and that they would have kept a watchful eye on them.

Like I said before, the log entries heard in "Space Seed" indicate that Kirk did, indeed apprise Star Fleet of what became of Khan. If nothing else, surely he reported where Marla McGivers, an officer, wound up, which I'd expect called for some level of elaboration beyond "She participated in a mutiny, so I stranded her on some planet."


 QUOTE:
Unless Starfleet was vastly different than what we saw in TNG. I don't think that they would just abandon them and forget about it.

Starfleet of the TOS time frame was pretty different from what we saw in TNG.

I don't know that not checking back up on them is the same as forgetting about them. Remember, space is big. Really big. Starfleet resources are not as big. At least a few times we hear that the Enterprise is the only ship in range to deal with this or that crisis.


 QUOTE:
Khan and his crew were still human beings. Augmented ones to boot. That in itself I think would make it an imperative that they kept an eye on them.

Imperative in comparison to what, though?  With limited resources and an interstellar nation's worth of crises and errands, checking up on fewer that 100 marooned people is probably going to be a fairly low priority.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 23 February 2017 at 9:58am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

More problematic would be that Chekov didn't bother to mention that Khan was imprisoned one planet over from where the Reliant crew believed they'd be surveying--Ceti Alpha VI.

+++++++

Exactly. It either makes Chekov look foolish for not mentioning the Botany Bay incident when the Reliant headed into the Ceti Alpha system or makes Terrell look foolish for being caught completely off guard. And this much, at least, could have been avoided by not having Chekov and Khan recognize one another.

Have to dispute this point. Khan's world would be, if still in its proper position, millions of kilometers away. And I doubt anyone would be suspecting that he'd have developed interplanetary travel -- starting at zero -- in just the few years since "Space Seed".

What we are in danger of, here, is drifting into that species of fanthink where the characters are expected to speak in constant expositon: "Ve must be careful, Keptin. Tventy years ago Keptin Kirk left a gang of genetically engineered supermen on dat planet von hundred million kilometers away..."

It's akin to landing in New York and being concerned about what might be going on in California.

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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 23 February 2017 at 10:33am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

From Khan's point of view Kirk did screw up. That much is conveyed in the film. Watching the film there was nothing to contradict what Khan said. That part bothered me. I don't like the idea that Captain Kirk screwed up.

Khan is (a) clearly out of his mind, and (b) the bad guy.  I'm not sure we were expected to share Khan's point of view.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~```
 I don't think we are meant to share his point of view.  It's just that we weren't given any conflicting point of view from that. Even if it were just a few lines of dialogue.




 QUOTE: 
Khan and his crew were still human beings. Augmented ones to boot. That in itself I think would make it an imperative that they kept an eye on them.

Imperative in comparison to what, though?  With limited resources and an interstellar nation's worth of crises and errands, checking up on fewer that 100 marooned people is probably going to be a fairly low priority.
~~~~~~~~~~
 How do you define limited resources? Too limited that they wouldn't send a ship every so often to at least scan the planet for life forms.

 I say it was Imperative that they kept an eye on 75 genetically engineered supermen and women. 

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Michael Casselman
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Posted: 23 February 2017 at 11:11am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

The Federation seemed to be aware of the existance of sleeper ships being out there. that one of them is accounted for would probably put the Botany Bay crew a bit further down on the list of priorities, as opposed to seeking out the other ships that might be out there.
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 23 February 2017 at 11:31am | IP Logged | 7 post reply


The Federation seemed to be aware of the existance of sleeper ships being out there. that one of them is accounted for would probably put the Botany Bay crew a bit further down on the list of priorities, as opposed to seeking out the other ships that might be out there.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 I wasn't aware that there were other sleeper ships floating around in space.
Still even if there were some out there.  It doesn't make sense that the federation would make finding those ships a priority over Khan and his people. Why you make something that might not exist over something that you know does? Which is a potential threat.  Heck even if you didn't view the crew of the Botany as a threat. I would think just from purely humanitarian stand point. The Federation would have kept tabs on them.  
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Michael Casselman
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Posted: 23 February 2017 at 1:49pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

 "A strange, violent period in your history. I find no record what so ever of an SS Botany Bay. Captain, the DY-100 class vessel was designed for interplanetary travel only. With simple nuclear-powered engines, star travel was considered impractical at that time. It was ten thousand to one against their making it to another star system. And why no record of the trip? "

I don't think it was explicitly stated that this was either the only such vessel or not, but certainly if the Botany Bay was an undocumented sleeper ship, it left the door open to such possibilities. Then again, perhaps I'm conflating this with them also speculating about other Doomsday Machine devises at the end of that episode, and their concern about running into those at some point. I think a case could be made that if a starship crew runs into a significant menace, there would be some Fleetwide alerts put out to make other ships aware of potential threats in the adjoining sectors/quadrants.

 "I have collected some names and made some counts. By my estimate, there were some 80 or 90 of these young supermen unaccounted for when they were finally defeated."

There were 12 malfunctioning units and 72 survivors on the Botany Bay. It's a very slim margin for error going by Spock's estimates, but if we are to believe that there are incomplete, 'fragmentary' records of the era, that also leaves the door open. Could the fudging of the numbering been deliberate for the possibility of a sequel during the original show run? Hell, if Harry Mudd could get a second episode...

If there were other Khan's out there waiting to be picked up by unaware starships, cruisers, freighters, or whatever, I would think there'd be a BOLO for such vessels taking priority over the mass group of them who have been found and 'jailed' with little chance of immediate escape.

And, yeah, you would have thought that the Federation would want to keep tabs. However, there's the problem of McGivers... does Starfleet wash their hands of someone who betrays one of their ships, and willingly leaves the service to live with violent criminals? Is Ceti Alpha V considered a formal penal colony? Or, as is prone to happen in bureacracies, is the report on Ceti Alpha V sitting in a stack of reports that never gets looked at, perhaps even downplayed or discarded by someone at a Starbase or on Earth who has no idea the consequences?

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John Byrne
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Posted: 23 February 2017 at 1:56pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

De-uniquing Khan and his people strikes me as less than a good idea.
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Michael Casselman
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Posted: 23 February 2017 at 2:04pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

That way lies 'Augments'.  And, to an extent, Dr Bashir.

Edited by Michael Casselman on 23 February 2017 at 2:05pm
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 23 February 2017 at 11:41pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

It should be noted that more fallout from the Eugenics Wars appeared in TAS' "The Infinite Vulcan", in the form of a clone of Dr. Stavos Keniclius.

Anyway, I just recently slogged through ENTERPRISE's "Augment" arc, complete with 'Lil Khan and his followers.



...I can firmly say that, no, de-uniquing Khan is not a good idea.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 24 February 2017 at 5:46am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Also, even with twenty years, extraplanetary travel seems highly unlikely. CARS seem highly unlikely - even steam driven ones.

Granted that Khan and his people were genetically enhanced, they still started from basically nothing. First priority is shelter, food and water, security - the very basics of life.

Even with a head start (all the technical library of the U.S.S. Enterprise), what could be accomplished in twenty years? I'm suspicious that modern conveniences could be created from scratch in that time, let alone devices that could be detected by the Reliant. And space travel - even a Gemini type mission - seems extremely unlikely.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 24 February 2017 at 11:17am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

..but what if, say, a Klingon ship or that of some other species happened to visit the planet, and therefore gave Khan a chance to escape? Indeed, as seen in TWOK, the prospect of Khan escaping would not necessarily be dependent on the colony's ability to build its own ship.
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 24 February 2017 at 12:51pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply


..but what if, say, a Klingon ship or that of some other species happened to visit the planet, and therefore gave Khan a chance to escape? Indeed, as seen in TWOK, the prospect of Khan escaping would not necessarily be dependent on the colony's ability to build its own ship.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My thoughts exactly
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John Byrne
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Posted: 24 February 2017 at 3:19pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

So...... the Federation should expend time and resources keeping an eye on Khan just on the CHANCE that some spacefaring race MIGHT happen by his remote world? And would HAPPEN to find his encampment?

If they really thought there was a problem, couldn't they place a flock of spy satellites in orbit around the planet? And doesn't the fact that they DIDN'T do that suggest that they didn't see a problem?

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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 24 February 2017 at 5:51pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply


So...... the Federation should expend time and resources keeping an eye on Khan just on the CHANCE that some spacefaring race MIGHT happen by his remote world? And would HAPPEN to find his encampment?

If they really thought there was a problem, couldn't they place a flock of spy satellites in orbit around the planet? And doesn't the fact that they DIDN'T do that suggest that they didn't see a problem?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It seems to me that it would be the smart play. Even if it were just a series of satellites. 

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 24 February 2017 at 10:38pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

So...... the Federation should expend time and resources keeping an eye on Khan just on the CHANCE that some spacefaring race MIGHT happen by his remote world? And would HAPPEN to find his encampment?

If they really thought there was a problem, couldn't they place a flock of spy satellites in orbit around the planet? And doesn't the fact that they DIDN'T do that suggest that they didn't see a problem?

+++++++


Valid points, of course. I suppose this line of discussion (for me, at least) is less about poking holes in the existing story than it is about thinking of fun alternatives to what we got. Like...say, a Klingon ship had found Khan, and we ended up with a Khan, Kor, and Koloth team-up (...although the acronym for that team would be unfortunate!).

As presented, it all works fine. Kirk did what he felt was best, took reasonable action under the circumstances, and Khan simply needed a target for his insane rage after things went south for him. And, whether he remembered Khan or not, Chekov had no reason to be wary of what he thought was Ceti Alpha VI, since Khan was ostensibly a whole planet away. 


Although, given Chekov's gradual realization when confronted with the Botany Bay buckle, it seems likely that he'd either forgotten about Khan, or that Khan hadn't even been a consideration to Chekov until he ended up surveying the wrong planet and finding the remains of the colony.

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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 24 February 2017 at 11:21pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

It isn't my intention to try and poke and holes in the existing story either. I'm just exploring what might have happened between the end of Space Seed and beginning of Wrath of Khan.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 25 February 2017 at 8:20am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

Although, given Chekov's gradual realization when confronted with the Botany Bay buckle, it seems likely that he'd either forgotten about Khan, or that Khan hadn't even been a consideration to Chekov until he ended up surveying the wrong planet and finding the remains of the colony.

Given that he was not directly involved with what happened to Khan at the end of "Space Seed" we could well ask ourselves why we would expect Chekov to recognize a cargo pod from a hundred year old spaceship.*

_______________________

* Which, if we want to push a point, really shouldn't even be there. Somehow I can't see Kirk going back to collect the "adandoned" Botany Bay!

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 25 February 2017 at 9:59am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Important note--it's a common misconception that the cargo pods seen in TWOK are from the Botany Bay, or that they're even the remains of the actual ship.

In fact, the cargo pod set was specifically designed to resemble the pods seen in THE MOTION PICTURE, both inside the Enterprise's cargo deck, and being flown around the drydock by the one-man "Workbee" construction vehicles. The exterior of the cargo pod set in TWOK even has the Workbee attachment sled jutting out from the front of it.

The script for TWOK specifically calls out Terrell and Chekov failing to notice the Federation insignia on the floor when they enter the pods. Also, while virtually impossible to see onscreen (but it IS there), but visible in behind-the-scenes photos, the Federation insignia is painted on the outside of the pods.

So, in other words, the idea is that Kirk left a few of the Enterprise's cargo pods behind in order to help start the colony. The Botany Bay buckle and other such personal effects were presumably transferred to the Enterprise (and later to the pods) before Khan released the Botany Bay from the Enterprise's tractor beam and left it adrift.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 25 February 2017 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

WTF would Khan take a SEATBELT onto the Enterprise?

Most illogical!

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 25 February 2017 at 12:25pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Sentimentality, maybe? A memento from the vessel which had carried him into a brave, new Future?
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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 25 February 2017 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Maybe he just hadn't gotten around to making a clothing accessory out of it....
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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 25 February 2017 at 1:19pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

There are rumors that Fox is interested in bringing Firefly back on as a series, if they can get Josh Whedon back.

If that launched this fall, that would be 15 years from the series' initial premiere.

Hard to believe the same amount of time has passed as had between Space Seed and KHAN.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 25 February 2017 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

Sentimentality...

Yeah, that sounds like Khan...

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