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Greg Woronchak Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 1631
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Posted: 24 February 2017 at 7:14am | IP Logged | 1
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shaking up a lower-selling book for as long as possible so that people will remember why they enjoyed the classic version so much before they started taking it for granted.
You sincerely think that is the reason they went with that gimmick?
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Bill Collins Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Location: England Posts: 11247
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Posted: 24 February 2017 at 7:35am | IP Logged | 2
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Those two covers are classics!
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Brian Rhodes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3302
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Posted: 24 February 2017 at 9:06am | IP Logged | 3
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I think the length of the stories is the downside.
I thought one issue with a Spider-Man clone was pretty cool (actually the first comic I ever remember having - and still have. It has no cover, but I still have it!):
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7480
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Posted: 24 February 2017 at 11:40am | IP Logged | 4
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Replacing Thor with Jane is a status change only so long as it lasts. When Thor resumes his role as the God of Thunder, things will revert to how they used to be.
I'm also of the camp that believes "worthiness" is not part of the equation since Don Blake realized he really was Thor. Thor didn't have to be worthy; none of the Asgardian gods did. They had their powers and their place in the pantheon. None of it was based on some blind ethical standard of which they are unaware.
"Look out, Odin is unworthy of being the Allfather, guess it's all up for grabs now!" I mean, c'mon.
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Warren Scott Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 July 2016 Posts: 201
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Posted: 24 February 2017 at 8:29pm | IP Logged | 5
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I think Anthony has a point about the investment of time and money being an issue for some fans, especially old-time ones like me. But there's also another motivator: we've seen it all before. The comics companies expect us to get excited because WELL-KNOWN SUPERHERO (fill in the blank) will die or quit and someone else will take his/her place. I'm not saying interesting stories can't be told from a different character's viewpoint. But it also feels a little like a cheat. Can't writers come up with interesting stories for the regular characters? And I don't know who said "shaking up a lower-selling book for as long as possible so that people will remember why they enjoyed the classic version so much before they started taking it for granted." But that actually has been given by editors as the reason for such shake-ups with Superman, Batman and Captain America. They said they replaced those characters with others who didn't match them so we would appreciate their qualities more. Personally, I think there are too many story arcs in everything - comics, TV and movies. They can be interesting but often, they're a shameless ploy to keep us coming back. Think of all of the great series that made little or no attempt to connect one story to another: the original Star Trek, Sherlock Holmes, James Bond.
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 24 February 2017 at 9:01pm | IP Logged | 6
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The date if Superman DID take a year, but you can do that ONCE. Remember, a lot of people bought into the story. People really thought they were killing him off. Then there was.those.that thought he'd be back in a month or two. It was the one time.that extending that arch a tally made part of the audience reconsider and think, "Oh man, they weren't kidding." The medium got to pull that off once. Now heroes drop like flies and get replaced for years all the time.
Also keep in mind, once these multi-year status quo changing storyline end, they don't go back to the original status quo anymore. The characters never go back to center.
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Robert Cosgrove Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1710
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Posted: 25 February 2017 at 9:52am | IP Logged | 7
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Is a hero a costume, or a weapon, or a fully realized, unique personality? Increasingly, the answer appears to be the former.
DC, in the fifties and early sixties, had "imaginary" or sometimes dream stories where someone took the place of the hero for a book or less. Marvel made fun of the idea, but later adopted it with its "What If . . . " book.
There were many Phantoms, but only one at a time, and the impression was that absent a visit to the archives, we always saw the same Phantom.
In the comic books, Green Lantern was the first book I remember where multiple heroes bore the name, but generally as acknowledged temporary subs for Hal Jordan. Like it or not, there was a certain logic to this, as the silver age Green Lantern was almost from the first depicted as an intergalactic cop who had been issued a uniform and a gun, in the form of a power ring, by the Guardians. We all knew that when he went, someone else would get the ring and costume, so why not have a fill-in or two when he was out of town?
To my mind, the situation is now almost completely out of hand. One develops an affection for characters. Think about someone you love in your family. If he or she were gone tomorrow, would a "replacement" be as good or better?
These changes are now often coupled with the "everything you thought you knew about X is wrong!" Well, I followed the damn book for x years based on liking "everything I thought I knew" about the character. If it's wrong, maybe it's time to stop reading the book. Which is increasingly what I've done lately.
Edited by Robert Cosgrove on 25 February 2017 at 9:53am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132231
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Posted: 25 February 2017 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | 8
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When I started on IRON FIST it was at the beginning of the Coleen Wing kidnapping story (I think it began in the previous issue) which then went on for something like nine months. All the years I worked with Chris, in fact, I tried to push him toward more compressed storytelling. I pointed to things like the first Galactus "trilogy," which was really only two and a half issues. Part of the problem was Chris' habit of writing "three part" stories that really played out as PART ONE -- Filler Issue -- PART TWO. I'd mostly cured him of this when Marvel forced Dazzler into the middle of our two part Kitty Pryde intro.
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Lars Sandmark Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 October 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 3142
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Posted: 25 February 2017 at 3:00pm | IP Logged | 9
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If I am a fan of Marvel characters, why would I continue collecting the comics if those characters are no longer in the comics?
Just spotted this online today. They just put a line through the sand saying OLD and NEW.
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Trevor Smith Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 3520
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Posted: 25 February 2017 at 5:13pm | IP Logged | 10
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Oh yay, realism.
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 25 February 2017 at 8:00pm | IP Logged | 11
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That Alex Ross pic is a promo image for an upcoming crossover event called... (wait for it) "Generations." The entire point of the exercise seems to be establishment and celebration of "Legacy Heroes," a very DC-minded concept which is strangely popular in certain segments of fandom. "Wally West and Kyle Raynor were better than Barry and Hal" and so forth. The idea seems to underscore the notion that "youth will out" and that the outmoded old guard need to make way for the new, but as has been noted here, there is no reason for the "old" to ever be treated as such, since their adventures can always be written as taking place "today," and age can be irrelevant to ink-and-paper people.
Ah, but "everyone" knows better these days! We "know" how old those fraudulent ol' phonies are, prancin' around pretending to be of a certain age, when in fact, they're as old as the hills... And besides, we have a new Hotstuff McMuffin title coming out soon and her whole gig is tweaking the noses of these fogeys ("lovingly," of course!) while spouting teenspeak about how the real problem with Millenials is that they're all so old now... Seriously, isn't about time for the next wave to get some attention?
So "old" must be treated as "old" and must act "old" even if its against every concept central to the character's appeal and seemingly runs counter to sane commercial product manufacture. It really was a long time ago now, wasn't it, that Spider-Man's marriage was ashcanned in the name of keeping the character "young." Well, we're clearly done with that nonsense now. Guy's old. Let's make him old.
Here's what really bothers me about that image. Carol Danvers and Jane Foster are right there, in front of the men they're replacing. In fact, Carol seems to be there twice, in both the old and the new guard, something Ross underscores by having her assume identical poses in both rows. Both Carol and Jane were in the first few issues of Mar-Vell and Thor's original iterations making them just as old as the fogies they're kicking to the curb.
Marvel, you keep using this word "Generations." I do not think it means what you think it means. Why not just call it "Characters With Same Name" instead? Or how about "Franchises?" I like "Franchises."
Edited by Brian Hague on 25 February 2017 at 8:06pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132231
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Posted: 25 February 2017 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | 12
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Of course, the same mentality that complaine about older heroes being "outmoded" tends so often to be the one that insists the characters should age. See that point, you crazy cats? Well, ya just keep MISSING it!!
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