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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 16 March 2017 at 10:56pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

JB, the episode I'm most interested in your impressions of is Flashback
It's a ways off, in Season 3, so I'll sit back and be patient.

All of the Borg talk recently reminds me of the original idea for Flashback, using Stephen Collins as a guest star.  You can pretty much connect the dots where they were going to go with that one.






Edited by Rob Ocelot on 17 March 2017 at 11:29am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 17 March 2017 at 8:01am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

JB, the episode I'm most interested in your impressions of is Flashback. It's a ways off, in Season 3, so I'll sit back and be patient.

••

I doubt I'll get that far, unless there is a dramatic improvement somewhere ahead.

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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 17 March 2017 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

<JB> I doubt I'll get that far, unless there is a dramatic improvement somewhere ahead.

Erm... yeah.

In that case just skip forward to Flashback (S3e2), Before and After (S3e21), and Year of Hell I and II (S4e8,9).  Throw in Scorpion I and II (S3e26, S4e1) for the Seven stuff and that'll give you the edited highlights.


Edited by Rob Ocelot on 17 March 2017 at 12:07pm
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Marten van Wier
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Posted: 17 March 2017 at 1:16pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I would like to say S4 "Message in a Bottle" as well and "Hunters" and "Prey" because I like the Hirogen as antagonists (they are sort of the Predators of the Star Trek universe), but their concept suffered in "The Killing Game" when they were running a rather stereotypical World War 2 scenario (I did find it somewhat enjoyable to watch the first time), and made one more appearance in "Flesh and Blood". (the problem with this episode could be the various self aware/sapient holograms which become more and more of a Voyager trope. In "the Killing Game" the holograms are just interactive story book characters that follow a script with variable branching paths)

I still like them as they were one of the species that would have been more difficult to "humanize" or "domesticate", seeing everyone else outside their own species as prey, but unfortunate it still happened.
They were probably at their strongest in "Hunters".


Edited by Marten van Wier on 17 March 2017 at 1:23pm
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Joe Boster
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Posted: 17 March 2017 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I watched flashback twice. Once as background noise on a busy Saturday at my comic store. Seeing Sulu and the excelsior caused me to watch it again. It was a good ride but a disappointing end. Tho, I didn't think vulcan mind melds worked that way. 

One thing I'll note is 3 seasons of watching is the beginning and the end are just not very good. The middle is certainly watchable but If I am doing something and miss the end of an episode I don't go back and watch it. 

3.5 seasons in and I still enjoy the opening music! That's a plus. 

But just watching the highlights might make the series seem less boring than it is. It's amazing how VOY manages to equal ENT is vapidity in a completely different way.


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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 17 March 2017 at 3:38pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

JB, I think Eye of the Needle is up next for you which I thought was one of the better S1 episodes.
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Marten van Wier
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Posted: 17 March 2017 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Tho, I didn't think vulcan mind melds worked that way.

**

Basically Janeway and Tuvok were on the holodeck. It is kind of weird how in Tuvok's memories people would react when they suddenly notice Janeway.
Either Tuvok has a very vivid imagination capable of making creative stories in his mind, or that alien disease was making up the said holodeck like scenario to keep Janeway out. (which on its own is stupid as it is not a sentient organism, was it?)

**

But just watching the highlights might make the series seem less boring than it is. It's amazing how VOY manages to equal ENT is vapidity in a completely different way.

**

Sadly, in many ways Voyager was the prototype for Enterprise :(
But in Enterprise's case it took a long time before episodes came along that were somewhat decent.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 17 March 2017 at 5:08pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Uhm, spoilers?
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Marten van Wier
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Posted: 18 March 2017 at 1:13am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Oh, sorry


Edit: a question for the Voyager "veterans" here.
Should Voyager perhaps have had "alien species of the season", one species that makes multiple appearances during a season giving the watcher the chance to learn more about them, their society and so on?

I thought Voyager was heading with this when the Hirogen and later the Malon were introduced and featured in several episodes.


Edited by Marten van Wier on 18 March 2017 at 7:14am
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 18 March 2017 at 9:49am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

When it comes right down to it, I think that VOYAGER just wanted to do TOS/TNG-style done-in-one, "alien of the week", stories, with the "lost in space" angle thrown in there to make it seem fresh. As opposed to building the show around the "lost in space" angle, and extrapolating where things would logically go, based on that premise (the afforementioned scarcity of crew and supplies, etc.).
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John Byrne
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Posted: 19 March 2017 at 5:25pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Eye of the Needle

Again, WAY too much technobabble, and I was about six paces ahead of them plot-wise,* but this had a nice TOS feel to it, generally speaking.

Liking Kes more and more, which makes real world knowledge particularly painful and intrusive.

Full disclosure: a slight misting up when the Doctor asks for a name.

_________

* I found myself hoping I was wrong, so I could use my story in NEW VISIONS!

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John Byrne
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Posted: 19 March 2017 at 7:20pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Ex Post Facto

Silly looking aliens and a convoluted plot made this one hard slogging. And -- uh oh -- is that "Super Tuvok" strolling into view?

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Jack Bohn
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Posted: 20 March 2017 at 8:22am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

I remember commenting around season 2 or 3 that the episode titles were not very evocative, but "Ex Post Facto" did bring to mind what plot it would have been, and, though I had to look up "Eye of the Needle", I should have guessed it. But there are some to come...!

I wasn't on the watch for "Super Tuvok" back then, but I was afraid he would slip from security officer to science officer. Any signs of that were minor enough that I was able to ignore them.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 20 March 2017 at 9:17pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Liking Kes more and more, which makes real world knowledge particularly painful and intrusive.

Sometimes, the less you know the better.  Do yourself a favor and resist the urge to read up on the weird influence Jeri Ryan had on US politics over the last decade.

Full disclosure: a slight misting up when the Doctor asks for a name.

One of my biggest beefs with Voyager and how the character of the Doctor was handled is how heavy-handed his 'AI discrimination' storyline was written.  The supposedly sociologically enlightened TNG-era Federation with it's IDIC principles is depicted in Voyager as very oddly backwards when it comes to recognizing advanced AI as a lifeform.  Given that eight decades have passed since The Ultimate Computer you'd have thought there would be legislation already written and waiting for when the elephant in the room eventually (if not inevitably) stands up and makes itself known. By the TNG era Starfleet is almost completely dependant upon advanced AIs for the smooth running of their ships and co-ordinating the larger movements of the whole fleet.  You don't want to be left with your pants around your ankles in the middle of a battle with the Romulans just because your on board computer decides to pick that moment to let you know it no longer wants to be your thankless servant.

It's very jarring for the crew (and Janeway in particular) to harbour these types of attitudes towards AI when their Starfleet training should have prepared them to be on the lookout for "new forms of life".  You might be able to make a case for the the integrated Maquis crewmembers to have these sorts of views but it seems the Voyager writers were going out of their way to downplay any of the (obvious) tensions and story threads that should be arising between the Maquis and Starfleet.  There's also what appears to be an abandoned plotline with the ship's bio-neural gel packs gaining sentience.  They make a big point of mentioning this feature of the ship in the pilot yet that Chekhov's Gun remains firmly on the wall for the rest of the series.

On the other hand the Voyager writing staff seemed to have no problem with the crew tacitly accepting Neelix and Kes' relationship even though there's a hugely weird (and IMO borderline skeevy) disparity in their chronological ages.  Sure,you can be accepting of the norms of different cultures but that sort of understanding comes with familiarity.  Your first (human) reaction is liable to be very different.

I think the Doctor's story could have been handled in a more subtle and less condesending fashion.

 


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John Byrne
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Posted: 20 March 2017 at 9:24pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Okay, I'll try this again:

The point of this thread is that I'm watching these episodes FOR THE FIRST TIME.

I really don't appreciate these flash-forward "And this is where it went..." synopses.

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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 20 March 2017 at 9:32pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Oops.  Sorry, Chief!

I'll step back and let you enjoy the show.
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 21 March 2017 at 12:24am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

When I first watched the series I didn't care for Tuvok. As Vulcans go he didn't appeal to me. I've had a difficult time accepting any non TOS actors as Vulcans. None of them really lived up to what I think was established on TOS. I eventually accepted T'Pol. No doubt my finding the actress very attractive was a contributing factor.  

Revisiting Voyager now and well into season five. I have found that my opinion of Tuvok has changed over the years. I'm beginning to like the character. He still doesn't measure up to the real Vulcans of TOS. But as far as TNG era goes he's pretty good.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 March 2017 at 9:40am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

When Tuvok was first announced, I had a negative reaction. Not to the idea of a Black actor playing a Vulcan, per se, but a contextual complaint. Spock, after all, was not White, he was Green. And it seemed to me that if a Black actor was going to play Tuvok, then at least they should paint him a dark olive, just as they painted Nimoy with that hint of mint.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 21 March 2017 at 11:29am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

What I liked about Tuvok was that he managed to avoid the two poles of on the one hand, doing a Spock impression, and on the other hand, doing a, 'This is the special Vulcan who breaks all the rules we've established about what Vulcans are like" on the other hand, which is what they did with T'Pol.  Tim Russ managed to create a character that followed all the Vulcan rules that had been established, but was still a different person than other Vulcans we had seen.  Also, he avoided the a-hole Vulcan caricature of most of the Vulcans on Enterprise.
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Aleksandar Petrovic
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Posted: 21 March 2017 at 10:23pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

I liked Tuvok, he was a well played Vulcan. But why should Vulcan races mimic human races? "Is that really the extent of your imagination?" was my first reaction there.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 March 2017 at 10:28pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

Drifted thru this past weekend without visiting VOYAGER. Without even thinking to do so!

I think this experiment may be over!

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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 28 March 2017 at 7:07am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

How far did you get JB?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 March 2017 at 10:35am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Seven or eight episodes.
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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 28 March 2017 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

It's was a hard series to keep watching. Every so often I'll see something that I'll find interesting. But too many uninteresting episodes in between.
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