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Fred J Chamberlain
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4018
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| Posted: 26 April 2017 at 6:56am | IP Logged | 1
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One need only follow the money and/or power to see through much of
the motivations for many conflicts..... though it is interesting to talk of
the manipulations of the U.S. Colonists and the deeper motivations for
the American Revolutionary War. Always leaves me scratching my
head, when strong and immediate dismissals follow, as if it must be an
all or nothing, black and white, good guy/bad guy scenario that is the
motivator for one's "side". Too many people pick sides as casually as
those living in a region pick a favorite football team as the best.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132261
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| Posted: 26 April 2017 at 7:06am | IP Logged | 2
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One of the things I have learned in my years puttering around this planet is that we owe most of the GOOD STUFF in the modern world the TERRIBLE things that happened LONG AGO.Sad but true.
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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2175
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| Posted: 26 April 2017 at 7:43am | IP Logged | 3
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JB>>One of the things I have learned in my years puttering around this planet is that we owe most of the GOOD STUFF in the modern world the TERRIBLE things that happened LONG AGO.<<
One of those very uncomfortable truths that hopefully teach us that we owe it to ourselves, and the memory of everyone who paid for what we have, that we need to make the world and ourselves better. For no other reason than so that such things don't happen again.
I think it remains to be seen if Humans showing up on the planet is a good thing at all. Look at all the bad we've done in such a short amount of time! Considering the alternative, I kinda feel like we owe it to ourselves to give Growing Up a shot. I'd certainly like to believe we can be better than we have been...
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Fred J Chamberlain
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4018
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| Posted: 26 April 2017 at 7:47am | IP Logged | 4
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Nice sentiment, Conrad. I agree with it. Unfortunately, we are living in a
time that people are paying less and less attention to the present world,
much less studying history. That said, we are spiraling away from the
chance of any lessons learned.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 26 April 2017 at 8:06am | IP Logged | 5
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I think it remains to be seen if Humans showing up on the planet is a good thing at all. •• I'd vote NO. It seems, based on what we have seen (and done), that the worst thing that can happen is if some element of the natural world comes to think of itself as separate from and ABOVE the natural world. That's us. We build religions that teach us we are separate and special, and not part of what is going on in the rest of the World. That everything out there, from natural resources to animals, are just for our use, in any way we'd care to use them. This is now in the process of biting us where we sit, and, as someone observed a while back, it is important to remember that just as hurricanes and volcanoes are "natural disasters," so, all too often, are the actions of the human race. When we wipe out a habitat and cause an extinction, that is a natural disaster, because we are part of Nature. (Beavers do this all the time, building their dams, but we don't decry them as "unnatural.") Years ago I read an article that made an excellent point: we think of ourselves as separate from Nature, but if we consider a bird's nest or a termite mound or that beaver dam to be "natural objects," we must also consider New York City, the Pyramids and Boulder Dam as "natural," too. We're part of the tapestry, not standing to one side looking at it.
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12436
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| Posted: 26 April 2017 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 6
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QUOTE:
| We build religions that teach us we are separate and special, and not part of what is going on in the rest of the World. That everything out there, from natural resources to animals, are just for our use, in any way we'd care to use them. |
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I don't know of a better antidote to that suicidal perspective than science.
How to make folks take their medicine, though...?!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 26 April 2017 at 9:12am | IP Logged | 7
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Science lacks one very important ingredient: it doesn't allow us to think of ourselves as SPECIAL.Every step of the way, science has stripped away the miracles and the magic, and shown that our presence here is the result of a long (and, granted, unrepeatable) process, no part of which has anything to do with divine intervention. There was no god to say "Shazam!" and call everything into being from nothing. Even the search for extraterrestrial life is just one more way to show that we are not unique, we are not chosen. We're stardust -- which is pretty special in and of itself, but not as special as having the Creator of the Universe taking a personal interest in each of us.* Science and reason demand that people give up too much that they cherish, most specifically the insane hubris that tells them they are the centers of their personal universes. ____________________ * Except THOSE people over THERE, of course. THEY are NOT his favorites, and he wants us to either convert them by force or wipe them out.
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Brian Peck
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1709
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| Posted: 26 April 2017 at 11:45am | IP Logged | 8
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We build religions that teach us we are separate and special, and not part of
what is going on in the rest of the World. That everything out there, from
natural resources to animals, are just for our use, in any way we'd care to use
them.
*********************
That can be applied to most but not all religions. Native Americans have their
religion where they are part of the land and it must be respected and
preserved.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 26 April 2017 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 9
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If you look very closely at what I wrote, you may be able to determine that I did not say ALL religions.
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Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26 April 2017 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | 10
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That can be applied to most but not all religions. Native Americans have their
religion where they are part of the land and it must be respected and
preserved. ************************************************************ ************** Do they really have a singular religion? And do they all follow a "land must be preserved" philosophy? This seems to play into the stereotype.
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Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 January 2011
Posts: 1734
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| Posted: 26 April 2017 at 1:17pm | IP Logged | 11
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My wife and I took our children on a family vacation not too long ago and was surprised to see a statue of Albert Pike in Washington DC. I was also surprised to see statues of Confederate leaders all over the South (I am from the North). It just seemed wrong.
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Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006
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| Posted: 27 April 2017 at 7:41am | IP Logged | 12
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Sadly, science also cannot grant us instant immortality upon the moment of our deaths, give us everything we ever wanted in life after we die, and restore all of our lost loved ones to us, including the pets. Religion also gives us Rules and Laws to govern our behavior so we can tell who is Good and who is Bad. It not only tells us we are special as a race to whichever God we select or have selected for us, but tells us we are individually loved, looked after, and that each of our lives have meaning from moment to moment because a gigantic force, bigger than we can comprehend, cares so very much about whether or not we get through traffic in time or hit that baseball.
Our lives are so important when we have Religion. Why, without it... we'd be so small... we'd have to make our own rules and find our own meaning... And we'd all die. For real. And never come back. We'd be dead forever. That's... not okay. All this struggle and strain with no Final Reward for us and no Final Punishment for that office manager who f***'ed us over? She gets to win? How is that fair?! And we don't get to find out all the answers after we die or get told by Our Father whether we were Good or Bad in the final analysis? We don't get to make him happy with how good we've been or how hard we've tried? And Fluffy's really been dead-dead this whole time???!!!??? Mom and Dad LIED to me???
The Human Race has serious Daddy issues. As well as Pet Issues. And Death issues. Religion makes all of that better... It hits so many of our "Happy Buttons" and asks for so little in return. Stone the harlots. Kill the non-believers. And hey, those kinds of things are fun in their own way, once you get into them...
Edited by Brian Hague on 27 April 2017 at 7:44am
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Topic Closed)
