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Brian Skelley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 February 2012 Location: United States Posts: 231
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Posted: 28 April 2017 at 7:53pm | IP Logged | 1
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I came across this article today
Link
It's part of Brian Hibbs' "Tilting at Windmills" series. This time he's talking about the issue of Marvel's sales being mostly because of the amount of titles they're shipping a month. I was hoping (and please remove if I've overstepped a rule or TPTB just plain don't like it) others could give me their thoughts on it. The gist of it is Marvel is having issues because they're attempting to sell multiple titles of a character bi-weekly for $4 a pop. Even hits like Black Panther is dropping fast due to them releasing "Black Panther: World of Wakanda" and now "Black Panther: The Crew".
It seems to me that this is correct, but also it's compounded with the lack of uniqueness of characters. Right now you have a few different Spider-Characters, two of with going by Spider-Man, even though they're two different characters with different power sets, backgrounds and story lines. It really does feel that they're strip mining their own IPs in ways that almost look like they're intending to drive people away.
Again, Just wanted to see how others thought about it. I know it's been discussed a few times about the characters being screwed up that's causing sale issues, but this is the first I'm seeing where the amount of titles is also causing issues.
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Bill Collins Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Location: England Posts: 11245
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Posted: 29 April 2017 at 12:37am | IP Logged | 2
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People only have a certain amount of disposable income,so publishing as many titles as Marvel does,often featuring the same hero/team,or a different version/s of said hero,plus all the crossovers becomes cost prohibitive.Then there`s the crossovers interupting storylines and the confusing continuity.Then there`s the decompressed storytelling!
If i was in charge of Marvel i`d have a major cull of titles.I`d reduce the line to one title of the core teams/characters,i`d encourage one/two issue storylines and only have event crossovers every couple of years.I`d reintroduce a Marvel Premiere type title or two to give lesser characters an airing.I`d also make sure the characters were recognisably the classic characters we all know and love.Hopefully with a condensed line,people would be able to afford to collect the titles they like.Plus /onetwo issue storylines would give three stories per trade minimum! The current model encourages people to stop collecting altogether as it`s so costly and confusing.I`d be interesed to read what solutions other members have!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132135
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Posted: 29 April 2017 at 4:36am | IP Logged | 3
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The amount of "disposable income" has been as issue ever since comics went from 10 cents to 12. A big part of the problem lies not in the money available to the consumers, but in the decision, long ago, to ghettoize the whole industry, and keep the cover price 10¢ even as other magazines went up in price.When comics were first being published, in the second half of the 1930s, that dime cover price did not indicate they were "cheap". TIME, LIFE, NEWSWEEK, all cost a dime, as did many other magazines. So clinging to the 10¢ cover made comics less and less profitable, especially to the retailer. And, of course, when circumstances force the price to finally go up, there was outrage. Comics had "always" been a dime. What boggles my mind in this modern age is that the same people who complain about comics now costing $4 (or whatever it is) do not seem to be the same ones complaining about "decompression". If a case is to be made, surely it is that consumers should be demanding their full money's worth.
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 29 April 2017 at 9:08am | IP Logged | 4
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Mr. Byrne, I think you're exactly right. I have reason to suspect that today's consumers have no idea what their full money's worth is with respect to the comic business. I might pay four dollars for a comic that's a done-in-one with really good story and complete... heck, one of the very few comics I still collect DOES that - Kurt Busiek's Astro City. I feel I get my money's worth.
But I'm 56, and have been getting comics for nearly half a century. Now let's consider the 15 / 18 / 22 / 27 year old who has been seeing the same type of comics for all their lives. Comic prices have always gone up, and it seems tremendously rare to find a single issue story anymore.
As has been noted, a good comic story could take just one page... or possibly even one panel (as Mr. Byrne noted regarding a Batman story.)
Bluntly, hard copy comics are not worth it anymore. Are digital comics? Dunno... I don't purchase those. But those aren't comic books. And if the product is not satisfying, it isn't worth the money - three bucks, four bucks, eight or nine or twelve dollars.
I think a deeper question is "Can this be turned around?" And I hate to say that I doubt it - but I don't know if anyone in the comic industry has the savvy to do so, even if they wanted to.
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Shane Matlock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 August 2012 Location: United States Posts: 1760
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Posted: 29 April 2017 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 5
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I think this sums it up perfectly: "Which is not treating your customers like bottomless ATM machines." That and his statement about how people don't want to buy a line of comics, they want to buy A comic. It's not really just a Marvel problem either, DC does the exact same thing. Any time something is a success they try to duplicate it to the point where it becomes completely watered down and totally unaffordable by the average comics reader. When I was a kid I loved Avengers and the X-Men and there was exactly one Avengers and one X-Men comic. Then along came New Mutants and West Coast Avengers. Still not completely unreasonable but hey what about making two X-Men comics, X-Men and Uncanny X-Men, and how about Wolverine and X-Force and pretty soon X-Men wasn't just a comic or two to keep up with, it was a whole line of books and the comics went from the .35 they were in my youth, to three, four, and sometimes even five dollars. Each successful title they had went from being a single title to a line of comics, the Spider-Man line, the Avengers line, the X-Men line, and on and on. It's not like DC didn't do the exact same thing with 4 Batman and Superman titles plus their ancillary titles like Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl, etc, until it's not just Batman and Detective comics, it's the Batman line of comics with constant crossovers where you can't just buy one title. Rebirth is looked at a pretty big success and it worked on me, but it's still another way to pump out even more product by making the most popular titles bi-weekly, which is fine but on top of that, if you're buying say, the Batman title which is already bi-weekly, in the first year of the title there has now been 2 crossover stories with other titles, the first being one with the whole Batman line comics (Monstermen or whatever) and now one with Batman and the Flash, where you can't just buy A comic. You have to buy other titles you're not even interested in or miss out on part of the story. It's a real problem for comics and the reason why something like Saga is selling 160 copies for this guy's store is because even though Saga has been a huge success, it's still just A title with zero spin-offs.
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Steve Adelson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 May 2009 Location: United States Posts: 1204
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Posted: 30 April 2017 at 7:58am | IP Logged | 6
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This is something I put together myself a few years ago; the price of a comic in constant 2013 dollars, when cover price was generally $2.99. There's been another jump since then.
What's interesting to me is that for the first ~15 years of the Silver Age, comics were worth about $0.85 worth of entertainment dollars. One alternate, a movie, would cost you 5-6x the cost of a comic. Today, the comic is $4 or so, and a movie is 3x or less. I'm not saying that comics should go back to $1, but those that produce them don't seem to understand what they are competing against. My $4 often can't even buy a complete story. I'm not sure I could get a complete story in three issues, which would more than pay for a month of Netflix as an alternative (for example).
Edited by Steve Adelson on 30 April 2017 at 7:59am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132135
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Posted: 30 April 2017 at 8:43am | IP Logged | 7
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Keep in mind that the cost of a comic book is still mostly dictated by elements over which the companies have no control. Cost of paper, printing, shipping, etc.
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Steve Adelson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 May 2009 Location: United States Posts: 1204
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Posted: 30 April 2017 at 9:53am | IP Logged | 8
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Understood, and we didn't even mention creator payment.... Nonetheless, there's a number of options vying for the entertainment dollar that simply didn't exist 60 years ago, or even 30 years ago, and TPTB are not producing a product that reflects those realities.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132135
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Posted: 30 April 2017 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | 9
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…and we didn't even mention creator payment•• Nor would I be likely to since, despite popular misconceptions to the contrary, what the talent is paid has virtually no impact on the cover price.
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
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Posted: 30 April 2017 at 5:30pm | IP Logged | 10
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"Again, Just wanted to see how others thought about it. I know it's been discussed a few times about the characters being screwed up that's causing sale issues, but this is the first I'm seeing where the amount of titles is also causing issues."
=====================
I actually prefer bi-weekly comics. It's more fun to read a new Superman story sooner rather than a month later. My guess is the problem with Marvel is that their stories just aren't any good.
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Shane Matlock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 August 2012 Location: United States Posts: 1760
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Posted: 30 April 2017 at 7:10pm | IP Logged | 11
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Marvel has a few good titles but they are the ones that you don't have to read a whole line of comics to keep up with. But who really cares about Moon Knight? Even if it's good it's never going to sell all that great. Most of what should be their biggest titles based on the promotion they get from the movies are kind of awful right now and the sales are a reflection of this and also the fact they're more expensive than DC's books and even the independent books. Why is Saga able to make money at 3 dollars but Marvel has every title now selling at 4 and 5 dollars and they have ad revenue that Image doesn't have? I never thought I'd see the day when Image put out better stuff than Marvel because back in the 90's even when Marvel and DC were really floundering the Image titles were just mostly terribly drawn pinups with horrible writing.
Like that article stated Marvel looks at their making more money off a 10 dollar issue of Amazing Spider-Man as a big success yet the shop owner can't sell any issues of it to anyone other than the subscribers and even some of those dropped the book because of it so in the long run they're going to make less money. But to them it's a big success? Really short term thinking which is what has basically caused their mess. But you reap what you sow and they're finally beginning to see that even if though they're blaming everything except their terrible business model. Oh, it must be all this diversity!
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Robert Shepherd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 March 2014 Location: United States Posts: 1268
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Posted: 30 April 2017 at 8:19pm | IP Logged | 12
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For me, there are many reasons why I stopped reading comics, but the two reasons at the top of the list were cost per book and total offering by the industry.
In other words, when I was a kid, I only bought DC and Marvel because that was the only books available to me (for the most part) at my local 7-11. So I was conditioned to buy everything I could.
Then the industry exploded and comic book shops became all the rage - so there was Marvel, DC, Image, Comico, Pacific, Malibu, Now, Spectrum, Valiant, Dark Horse, Innovation, etc. etc. etc. And since I wanted to buy everything, I tried to buy everything, and eventually gave up as the hobby had outgrown my purchase capability.
It still took years before I truly quit, but those two reasons are what started it all.
OH....and retconning got out of control. Thats another nail in the coffin.
How does that relate to Marvel sales? Well since there is still a high cost per book, a huge amount of total book offering from the industry, and rampant retconning, it looks to me things haven't changed at all.
Edited by Robert Shepherd on 30 April 2017 at 8:21pm
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