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Bill Collins
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 May 2005
Location: England
Posts: 11247
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| Posted: 10 September 2017 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | 1
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I apologise for my poor spelling...vodka is to blame!
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Petter Myhr Ness
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 July 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 3823
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| Posted: 11 September 2017 at 1:22am | IP Logged | 2
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None of the four gospels were written by contemporaries of Jesus. It is believed they had a common source, explaining their likeness, but we know nothing of that source. There are non-canonical gospels (like Thomas), which may be older than any of the four included in the Bible. But they're still not contemporary.
My point is: how reliable can any such information be, handed down decades after the supposed death of Jesus?
We humans have a propensity for rationalising, exaggerating details, excluding others and even denying matters of fact. We see it daily even in a time when almost EVERYTHING is documented.
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Warren Scott
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 July 2016
Posts: 201
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| Posted: 11 September 2017 at 10:07pm | IP Logged | 3
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Robbie,be wary of short articles that cite "historians and bloggers." I mean, the latter is right up there in credibility with Facebook, right?
Jewish historian Josephus and Roman politician Tacitus, among others, wrote about Jesus with some contempt but as a real person, nonetheless.
And the author Bart Ehrman is a poor example because he doesn't dispute that Jesus existed. He disputes that he claimed to be the son of God.
The Jews didn't believe he was the son of God because they expected a messiah who would free them from the Romans. If Jesus or his followers were conning the public, why wouldn't they try to live up to its expectations for the Messiah? And what personal gain did he or they receive for perpetuating this "con"?
The Bible does contain contradictions, I can't deny. It's probably due to its many authors or maybe it's life is complicated, and the same rules don't always apply.
But many Christians believe he sent us some basic rules, in the form of The 10 Commandments and the Golden Rule, and a role model in Jesus.
Even Ehrman has said Christ advocated sound ethical principles.
I'm afraid many who aren't Christians assume all Christians judge others and that all Christians believe the same things. Look into the various faiths and denominations, Robbie. It may be interesting to you even if you don't believe in God.
For Marios: I once struggled with the same question regarding those not exposed to Christianity. One answer is the book of Acts states God will judge everyone fairly. So it seems reasonable those who don't know Christ (including the many who came before him) would be given some leeway.
If you consider that the Jehovah's Witness folks believe they are helping to prevent that situation (though not in the most effective way, in my opinion), isn't it easier to just politely say, "No thank you," and let them go on their way?
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14812
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| Posted: 11 September 2017 at 11:41pm | IP Logged | 4
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Jewish historian Josephus and Roman politician Tacitus, among others, wrote about Jesus with some contempt but as a real person, nonetheless.
-----
Two people born after the events described in the Gospels, mentioning him in works written 60-80 years later that were possibly subject to Christian interpolation.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132236
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| Posted: 12 September 2017 at 5:28am | IP Logged | 5
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Jewish historian Josephus and Roman politician Tacitus, among others, wrote about Jesus with some contempt but as a real person, nonetheless.••• The references in Josephus are generally considered later additions, a problem which besets much of the early writing about Jesus. No original manuscipt survives for the writing by Tacitus, so again we have the problem of not knowing what he wrote.
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15778
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| Posted: 12 September 2017 at 7:15am | IP Logged | 6
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So what did I see when I went to the cathedral in Valencia and saw the one true grail????
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 12 September 2017 at 7:51am | IP Logged | 7
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Look into the various faiths and denominations, Robbie. It may be interesting to you even if you don't believe in God.
***
Already have, Warren. Over many years.
Here I have books about Judaism, Mormonism, Catholicism, Christianity, etc. I've read much of the Bible. I've studied the history of early Christians (i.e. Marcionites) and pre-biblical myths, too.
The "For Dummies" imprint has also been a source of information for me. Their books are comprehensive, detailed and informative.
I haven't read much about Islam, Muhammad or the Koran - so am at a loss there, but I definitely feel qualified to talk about Christianity. And the books I have read weren't 20-page pamphlets, but detailed books.
As for the Ten Commandments, one cannot argue with directives such as "Thou shalt not kill" but some of the commandments are egotistical. I am not sure why an omnipotent being would demand constant and exclusive worship.
There's a lot, and I don't want to engage too much in thread drift, that bothers me. For instance, Jehovah's Witnesses have their own version of the Bible (New World Translation). An adherent told me that the translation committee is anonymous so that glory be given solely to 'god'. That's very convenient for this 'committee'. No accountability, eh?
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Neil Lindholm
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: China
Posts: 4940
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| Posted: 12 September 2017 at 4:49pm | IP Logged | 8
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I once had a Jehovah's Witnesses tell me that dinosaur bones are really just the bones of very large people in the past and scientists were just confused. I walked away since how could I compete with logic like that?
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 12 September 2017 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | 9
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Confused scientists? Wow. Fire them all, I say!
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Sergio Saavedra
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 August 2007
Location: Spain
Posts: 452
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| Posted: 12 September 2017 at 5:10pm | IP Logged | 10
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I don't know what that JW was thinking, but it's the first time I hear something like that. Our belief is that dinosaur bones are the bones of dinosaurs, animals that lived millions of years ago.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 12 September 2017 at 5:41pm | IP Logged | 11
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The problem I have is that some Christians always have answers:
"Oh no, that part is metaphor." "Oh, yes, you must follow that part because it's literal." "Oh, incest is wrong - but was necessary after Cain was exiled. He had to marry someone." "Those dinosaur bones are the work of the devil."
Many are stock phrases.
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Neil Lindholm
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: China
Posts: 4940
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| Posted: 12 September 2017 at 5:41pm | IP Logged | 12
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Sergio, I met him (and his friend) on the street and we started chatting. I quickly realized that he had never read the Bible, only the passages that he was told to read and how to understand him. It was not much of a debate since I knew so much more about the Bible than he did. As soon as he gave me the "large bones" theory, I politely said goodbye and left.
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