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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 12 September 2017 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | 1
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It was not much of a debate since I knew so much more about the Bible than he did.
***
Hate to sound cocky, but this has been my experience, too. Mention the basics (Abraham/Isaac, Noah's Ark, Jesus) and they're pretty well-informed, but some of the more obscure/esoteric passages. well they don't seem up to speed with them all. I'm sure some Christians are, but it hasn't been my experience.
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Warren Scott
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 July 2016
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| Posted: 12 September 2017 at 8:40pm | IP Logged | 2
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Robbie, I hope I didn't sound condescending in suggesting you look into various faiths and denominations. It sounds like you have pretty thoroughly explored religion.
I get what you are saying about God sounding egotistical in the commandment "to have no other Gods before me." But here's another way of looking at it. There have been religions that involved human sacrifice and other practices that go against what Christians believe God wants them to do. Also, people can make a thing, such as money, most important in their lives, above God, which can be detrimental to themselves and others around them.
While I think it's important for representatives of the Christian faith to be able to discuss their religion, I don't think it's fair to expect all of them to be experts anymore than you would expect all supporters of the American Heart Association to know everything about the cardiovascular system.
Even if I could produce books and books with historical references to Christ, that would succeed only in demonstrating that he existed, not that he was the son of God, which is the most important principle for Christians. If God were to come down today and show himself, then atheists would believe. But for whatever reason, he doesn't. Yet I still believe because I feel you can have an intuitive knowledge of him.
I don't have all of the answers to why some things happen in The Bible or why some things happen in the world (I suspect they have more to do with us being humans than being part of God's plan.). But that's how I believe. And that's why my position can't come together with those looking for cold, hard facts.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 4:01am | IP Logged | 3
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Waaay back when I was a college student at the Ohio State University, I was accosted by someone from (presumably) one of the Christian student clubs, who tried to convince me to come to the meeting that afternoon (or whenever... details fade after a couple decades.)
He was very obviously armed with stock phrases and a limited number of passages, and he hit me hard. I tried to wander away, not impolitely, but he kept on me. He wasn't able to answer questions I asked besides, "That's the way God made it!" or similar.
Finally, I played THAT card. "Okay, whatever it is you're saying, it doesn't mean a lot to me because I'm Jewish-"
He got to play one of his obviously well rehearsed lines - "Oh, but you must know that the Jews killed Christ."
Well.
My grandmother would not have been proud of me, but I answered, "You don't know what the hell you're talking about, and GET AWAY FROM ME." Thus did I break the conversation.
Five seconds later, I looked back, and he had grabbed (physically) someone else.
And I suppose that this, as much as anything, DISPROVES to me that God or Jesus has a presence on Earth. I don't care how mysterious the ways of the creator are, I won't believe that event - or others far more heinous and hideous - are committed in that creator's name and the creator endorses. Why intentionally make a bad name for Yourself?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 4:06am | IP Logged | 4
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If the Jews killed Christ, shouldn't Christians send them special Thank You cards every Easter?
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 4:58am | IP Logged | 5
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Robbie, I hope I didn't sound condescending in suggesting you look into various faiths and denominations. It sounds like you have pretty thoroughly explored religion.
***
No, it's fine. You've become a close friend here, Warren.
I don't expect anyone to be an expert in anything, but I think it'd be useful for some to know a little bit more than the Noah's Ark/Adam and Eve tales - and maybe a bit of history about the faith.
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 5:30am | IP Logged | 6
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QUOTE:
| "Oh, but you must know that the Jews killed Christ." |
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Well, he didn't want to become a doctor, so what else could we have done...?!
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 6:21am | IP Logged | 7
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"Oh, but you must know that the Jews killed Christ."Well, he didn't want to become a doctor, so what else could we have done...?! •• Immediately reminded of the old joke about how we know Jesus was Jewish: he went into his father's business, and his mother thought he was God.
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 6:24am | IP Logged | 8
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I don't expect anyone to be an expert in anything, but I think it'd be useful for some to know a little bit more than the Noah's Ark/Adam and Eve tales - and maybe a bit of history about the faith.•• Scholars often refer to the "Fifth Gospel". This is the one that exists only in people's heads, confabulated out of the "good parts" of the other four.
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Michael Penn
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 6:44am | IP Logged | 9
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Can't somebody out there pay you, JB, to do a "Classics Illustrated" of one of the Gospels...?!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 7:00am | IP Logged | 10
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Can't somebody out there pay you, JB, to do a "Classics Illustrated" of one of the Gospels...?!•• I have been contemplating for years the idea of doing an adaptation of the Book of Matthew. I think that's the one that would mess with believer's heads the most, what with Mary and Joseph actually living in Bethlehem, and Jesus being several years older than a newborn when the Wise Men show up. A moment to recommend, once again, the superbly illustrated life of Jesus, THE ROAD OF COURAGE, done by Dan Dare creator Frank Hampson. It was originally serialized on the back page of EAGLE. The art will blow your right out of your socks --- even tho JC does look strangely like Dan with a beard!
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 9:41am | IP Logged | 11
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As long as this discussion is making the rounds, this again:Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. This has long amused me, as Jesus, presumably speaking Aramaic, makes reference to a "tittle", which is the dot over the lower case I and J.
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Sergio Saavedra
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 August 2007
Location: Spain
Posts: 452
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 10:55am | IP Logged | 12
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As long as this discussion is making the rounds, this again: Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. This has long amused me, as Jesus, presumably speaking Aramaic, makes reference to a "tittle", which is the dot over the lower case I and J. **************************************
Yes, when you translate anything, sometimes you have the dilemma of translating the original reference literally or using a reference that is easier to understand by your audience, but that doesn't fit with the cultural context of the original text. That happens all the time with films, comics, videogames or whatever.
Edited by Sergio Saavedra on 13 September 2017 at 10:59am
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