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John Byrne
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Posted: 05 October 2017 at 5:12am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

From the DISCOVERY thread:

" 'Mirror Mirror' makes it's parallel reality close to the 'real' one as a storytelling convenience and doesn't dwell on the impossibilities of how a universe where everyone is trying to stab everyone else in the back has the same people in the same physical places at roughly the same times as it's counterpart.   It would be really neat if DISCOVERY were to actually come up with a plausible reason within STAR TREK lore for why these types of realities exist."

I've sometimes quibbled the precise parallels seen in the Mirror-verse, especially as later iterations of TREK have pasted on their own often clumsy interpretations. But if we paint with the broadest brush available, we should remember we're dealing with infinite variants, so anything is possible.

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David Miller
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Posted: 05 October 2017 at 11:39am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Something I thought of while watching "Mirror Mirror" the other day: 

Since most parallel universes only vary by the quality of a single sand grain on a remote shore, just about anywhere, might it be possible that any transport could take the crew to a parallel universe and they don't realize it, and the ion storm just jarred the beam to a more alternate parallel than most? For all we know, every transport could result in this, and Starfleet crews are a motley of parallel versions.   

Just a thought. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 05 October 2017 at 1:19pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Since most parallel universes only vary by the quality of a single sand grain on a remote shore, just about anywhere, might it be possible that any transport could take the crew to a parallel universe and they don't realize it, and the ion storm just jarred the beam to a more alternate parallel than most? For all we know, every transport could result in this, and Starfleet crews are a motley of parallel versions.   

There are a lot of energy considerations in moving between universes, even if they are nearly identical to our own. An "unenhanced" transporter beam probably could not make the jump, however "close" the other universe might be.

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David Miller
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Posted: 05 October 2017 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Too bad, I thought I finally explained why everybody's uniforms kept changing... 

According to some theories, parallel universes aren't separated by barriers so much as by quantum physical laws; they occupy the same space and time simultaneously, but each universe is as perceived from within by its inhabitants (I think the "vibrational frequencies" the Flash manipulated to visit Earth 2 may have come close to the current state of debate). If that were the case, it may be Starfleet transporters require precise calibrations to ensure transportation stays localized. 

As must be obvious, my ignorance of the specifics of Star Trek science is only surpassed by my ignorance of quantum physics and parallel universe theory, so I was pleased to find this on Forbes: 

The Physics Of Star Trek: Quantum Teleportation Versus Transporters


It doesn't go into the parallel universe aspect, just the equational difficulty of coherent reassembly.  
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 05 October 2017 at 3:58pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

This thread makes me want to go revisit the "Mirror Mirror" episode of TOS again, which was a favorite of mine as a kid (and still is). I've never thought about how implausible it would be that the same crew would exist in a universe where everyone is trying to stab each other in the back to get ahead, but I do think it's possible, it would just be their trajectory to get where they are which differs. An "evil" Kirk would likely still wind up a captain, if he had the same other qualities as the Kirk of the original universe (minus his more humanist qualities of course). When you think about it too much though it seems like a society like that would tear itself apart pretty quickly and likely never attain what the Federation (and Earth) was able to as far as technology and space exploration goes. 
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David Miller
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Posted: 05 October 2017 at 9:04pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Shane, you should check it out. I'm but a modest Star Trek fan, only enduring the original cast, and I've never been disappointed when I've revisited a classic episode; it's held up well and offered something new. Somebody made the right decision to have Star Trek available on Netflix, Hula, and Amazon Prime; so it's easy to watch. 
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 06 October 2017 at 8:33am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I've sometimes quibbled the precise parallels seen in the Mirror-verse, especially as later iterations of TREK have pasted on their own often clumsy interpretations. But if we paint with the broadest brush available, we should remember we're dealing with infinite variants, so anything is possible.

Since the original incursion into both universes was a transporter malfunction I tend to think it's something inherent in the nature of the transporter technology.   Normal transporter function would prevent travel to parallel realities -- there's even TNG technobabble about 'Heisenberg compensators' addressing these sorts of technical problems.

However, the Mirror-verse may be the easiest of these parallel realities to access precisely because *both ends* of the tunnel are using the same or similar transporter technology.  As you say, with infinite variations there will inevitably be some parallel realities where transporter technology is developed but the Mirror-verse is a special case, at least if you count the events shown in ENTERPRISE.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 06 October 2017 at 8:37am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Since the original incursion into both universes was a transporter malfunction I tend to think it's something inherent in the nature of the transporter technology.   Normal transporter function would prevent travel to parallel realities -- there's even TNG technobabble about 'Heisenberg compensators' addressing these sorts of technical problems.

Those "compensators" were a way of addressing the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which renders the transporter pretty much impossible.

More navel-gazing, which TOS addressed by simply ignoring it!

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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 06 October 2017 at 8:47am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

When you think about it too much though it seems like a society like that would tear itself apart pretty quickly and likely never attain what the Federation (and Earth) was able to as far as technology and space exploration goes. 

ENTERPRISE attempts to explain this by showing the Earth Empire had access to a Prime-verse ship from 100 years in the future.   Presumably, it would have given them an advantage over their competitors in the short term.  Long term, their technology and design would have stagnated and not advanced beyond TOS-era tech.

Another twist to the whole ball of wax is the TOS Season 3 Defiant likely had logs or tech bulletins referencing the incident that happened in 'Mirror Mirror', and possibly modifications or upgrades to prevent events like that from happening -- telling the Earth Empire precisely what *not* to add to their technology.
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Joe Murray
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Posted: 06 October 2017 at 2:41pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Hope this wouldn't be considered thread drift.  In the Mirror-verse are the Klingons considered the "Good Guys"?

And, we could keep extrapolating/reversing from there...


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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

In the Mirror-verse are the Klingons considered the "Good Guys"?
And, we could keep extrapolating/reversing from there...

I don't think so, I think the Mirror Klingons are similar to their Prime counterparts and may actually have more in common with the TOS-era  Mirror Humans.  Pretty much a given that the Earth Empire would fire first on them -- and the Klingons would actually respect that Humans were upfront about their intentions rather than hiding behind diplomacy.  There doesn't appear to be much difference between Klingon society in either universe.

The whole Mirror-verse is really a nature/nurture exercise.   

As an example, there's no difference between Mirror Kirk and Prime Kirk on a genetic level.  All of the behaviors Kirk is capable of, both vicious and compassionate are possible in both individuals.  The real difference comes down to the environment in which they were raised.   Mirror Kirk got ahead by being ruthless and cunning -- as (or more) ruthless and cunning as his opponents and cohorts which made him suitable to be a leader of a starship in the Earth Empire environment.  Prime Kirk got ahead by being a fast and strategic thinker and distinguished himself in ways that made him suitable for the top job within the boundaries of Starfleet.

Context is key.  If you took Mirror Kirk at a young age and raised him in the Prime-verse you'd end up with an individual more like Prime Kirk.

Mirror Spock is also an interesting case.  Kirk gambles that for all their differences, Mirror Spock and Prime Spock are probably closer in philosophy than any other Prime/Mirror counterparts.   Spock is both a pacifist and pragmatist -- the Mirror Spock likely more pragmatic.  Given similar situations, like the 'needs of the many' conundrum in TWOK  I think Mirror Spock would have made the exact same pragmatic sacrifice to save his captain (most probably not Kirk at that point though!)


Edited by Rob Ocelot on 07 October 2017 at 5:35pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

There are no living Klingons in the Mirror Universe.

Cuz I said so!

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Ron Goad
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 7:26pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Well - I guess if you ignore DS9's little Mirror-verse ventures, you could claim no Klingons!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 08 October 2017 at 4:52am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Well - I guess if you ignore DS9's little Mirror-verse ventures, you could claim no Klingons!

Fortunately for my sanity, in STNV I can ignore anything that isn't TOS -- unless I don't!

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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 08 October 2017 at 10:54am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

I wonder if it was worth revisiting the mirror universe. Seemed to me to be two universes that started from very different conditions that approached a matching time and location - in orbit around the Halkan homeworld at that exact (unspecified) stardate, when conditions were so similar and the barrier was its weakest that, under those ionic conditions, a break through could occur. I thought of it as a tangent point between two universes, and being a tangent, would only occur once. I'm extremely certain that following the crossover, things went VERY differently in the mirror universe for Kirk, Spock, and that Enterprise!!!

But for Mr. Byrne's sanity... wait, do you really still lay claim to some? :)
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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 08 October 2017 at 4:43pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply


" 'Mirror Mirror' makes it's parallel reality close to the 'real' one as a storytelling convenience and doesn't dwell on the impossibilities of how a universe where everyone is trying to stab everyone else in the back has the same people in the same physical places at roughly the same times as it's counterpart.   It would be really neat if DISCOVERY were to actually come up with a plausible reason within STAR TREK lore for why these types of realities exist."

All apologies to the original poster, but what the heck has happened to modern fandom, where anything & everything within the fantasy genres, no matter how outrageous, must have rational and/or believable explanations attached???

It's the "Mirror Universe."  It's fun.





Edited by Shaun Barry on 08 October 2017 at 4:45pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 09 October 2017 at 6:34am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

All apologies to the original poster, but what the heck has happened to modern fandom, where anything & everything within the fantasy genres, no matter how outrageous, must have rational and/or believable explanations attached???

Nothing new there, Shaun. The day after "Mirror, Mirror" was first broadcast, I sat in school trying to figure out how the M.Enterprise could so closely parallel our own, even based on what we'd seen on the series itself. After all, contrary to some fanboy opinions, there is really no way M.Kirk and his crew could have survived that encounter with Balok and the Fesarius!

Again, the only way around the bumps in the road is to invoke the "Infinite Universes" hypothesis, and assume that the Mirrorverse we saw happened to match our timeline at that moment and only that moment.* The notion that everything matches is added in later.

______________________

* One of the fun aspects of dealing with Infinity. Literally anything is possible.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 09 October 2017 at 7:45am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

But for Mr. Byrne's sanity... wait, do you really still lay claim to some?

I'm the only sane human being in the world!!

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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 09 October 2017 at 9:04am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

JB: "I'm the only sane human being in the world!!"

So then, if I claim to admit your sanity, but I'm not sane... then that means... I mean, you might not be... and then carry the five...

Heck with it. This must be an alternate world.

(Aren't they all?) :)
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 09 October 2017 at 9:05am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

" 'Mirror Mirror' makes it's parallel reality close to the 'real' one as a storytelling convenience and doesn't dwell on the impossibilities of how a universe where everyone is trying to stab everyone else in the back has the same people in the same physical places at roughly the same times as it's counterpart.   It would be really neat if DISCOVERY were to actually come up with a plausible reason within STAR TREK lore for why these types of realities exist."

All apologies to the original poster, but what the heck has happened to modern fandom, where anything & everything within the fantasy genres, no matter how outrageous, must have rational and/or believable explanations attached???

It's the "Mirror Universe."  It's fun.

*****

I'm the original poster but no apologies necessary!

Originally I was hoping for a little lip service paid by DISC to the impossibilities surrounding the original TOS incident (yes, I'm well aware that DISC is set before the incident) but not to dwell on it.    There's throwaway lines and there's the point where two hours of television are dedicated to explaining it (ENTERPRISE).   Two extremes with a huge gulf in between them.

...and of course our resident master storyteller chimes in and in one elegant sentence solves the issue without breaking a sweat!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 09 October 2017 at 9:31am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

This must be an alternate world.

Nope, it's the only one. And it all exists in my head. So when I die. . .

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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 09 October 2017 at 11:03am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

JB: "So when I die. . ."
Wait... I thought you were eternal, like death and taxes. And "your old stuff was better", of course. 
Maybe that should be an alternate universe. Who'd want to go on without Mr. Byrne, solipsistic or not?

Okay, that had better be rhetorical.
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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 09 October 2017 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply


I totally understand wondering about the hows & whys of the Mirror Universe, Rob and JB... but I certainly don't want to see a loaded-with-technobabble "origin story," either!  :)



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John Byrne
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Posted: 09 October 2017 at 12:12pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

We've already seen the "origin" of the Mirror-verse. It's the one where Edith Keeler doesn't die.
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David Miller
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Posted: 09 October 2017 at 8:04pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

Often fans are simply having fun imagining fun imaginary mechanics, teeing flights of imagination off the dome of the Enterprise, so to speak. As long as they don't ruin it for themselves and everybody else, often by dwelling on some arbitrary, idiosyncratic or unnecessary scrap of specificity, there's no harm.
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