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John Byrne
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Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 108926
Posted: 07 October 2017 at 9:38am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

...and see how far you can get before the baseless opinions and factual errors wear you down.

YouTube

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Wilson Mui
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I like how he assumes you make $400-500K a year in
commissions at the end.
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John Byrne
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Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 10:16am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I didn't get that far. And that's wrong, too. Way too much.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 10:25am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Nobody loves Namor? Love how this guy speaks for all comic fans. I wasn't aware there was an official spokesperson for fandom.

Cheesy? Gosh, did he buy a thesaurus in order to look up that word? Never heard that before. Cheesy is the default term people use when they don't have the vocabulary to engage in constructive criticism.

He's making a lot of assumptions about our host. But his vocal style is one of those that implies "What I am saying is factual and you must not question it!"

I respect that YouTube guy for having the ability to change into a fly, travel back in time and witness Mr Byrne's disputes with editorial. He's spouting things way out of context, implying it's factual and making out that our host had a dispute with EVERY editor 12+ issues in - which affected the quality of his work.

This is the problem with the internet: no checking of facts, no context, no "This is my opinion..." The internet really is a double-edged sword at times.




Edited by Robbie Parry on 07 October 2017 at 10:25am
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Eric White
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 11:56am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Well, at least he said JB did hundreds of good comics. 

I hate when Millenials use the word "cheesy" I tune them out afterwords. That is their default word for describing anything done in the 20th century.


Edited by Eric White on 07 October 2017 at 1:34pm
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Ryan Maxwell
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Five minutes.  Then uh the uh "factual information" uh supported by uh "I think" and uh "I'm gonna guess" and uh "probably" just became too much.  He didn't give a single supporting example of any claim.  And good luck finding them, dood.  
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I've heard similar 'facts' elsewhere on the net (wrestling and comics seem to be the worst). And yet those spouting facts had one thing in common: they hadn't worked in those industries or been close to anyone who did.

It seems to be a variation on "My friend's cousin's roommate's uncle walked the dog for a security guard at DC and I will tell you this..."


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Eric Kleefeld
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

It's wrong right from the title of this guy's running feature: "Marvel Before SJW."

And when was this time that Marvel wasn't about promoting social justice and human progress, exactly?
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Yeah, bit of a bizarre video. He starts out with some fairly decent praise, for example calling the splash perfect, but then lurches into a claim that you always fell out with someone 12 to 18 issues in (where this number comes from, who knows) and then uses that a baseboard to leap into a claim that the backgrounds would drop out and the art would get sloppy.

If he wants to make claims like that, he should back it up with actual evidence, showing how backgrounds disappeared on all your runs... Except this didn't happen, so he can't. Your backgrounds have more often than not been outstanding. He also doesn't cotton on to the fact that there was a period where the backgrounds suffered as a function of the process of leaving space for the letterers, which is presumably one of the reasons you began doing your own lettering.

And then, of course, the claim that you just stopped caring in the mid-90s, that you were just 'phoning it in'. The laziest, most subjective criticism to hand. There quite a few compliments in the video, but they are all more than a little backhanded.
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John Byrne
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Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 2:03pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

There is a popular myth that I am "hard to work with". Yet if we look at my whole career, we find scant evidence for this. Editors who make this claim, for instance, on close examination turn out to be those who have treated my work as raw material, for them to shape into a finished form without any consultation with me. Editors who have lied to me, directly or by omission.

Howard Mackie, an editor with whom I had a perfectly fine working relationship, and who has continued as a friend, tells the story of an editor who had just been assigned to one of my books. He asked Howard how to "handle Byrne." Howard's response was "Don't lie to him."

How sad is it that he would even have to say that?

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John Byrne
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Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 2:10pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

This is the first time I have encountered "SJW". It reminds me of the time Shooter patted himself on the back by announcing on the Bullpen page that he was ordering all writers and artists to read the mail that came in for them.

SOMETHING WE WERE ALREADY DOING!!!

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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 2:29pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I made it to the end but only because I was enjoying seeing that issue of Namor while this idiot babbled. He did praise your work quite a bit and loved your work on Namor, including your duotone stuff which others have criticized and talked about how he liked how experimental you've been over your career , but, as others have said, his negative remarks about your mid-nineties stuff not being good he gave no examples of other than his own ill-informed opinion. Which tends to be the way most of your detractors operate. "His old stuff was better." Well, show me some examples. I'd put your IDW stuff and your commissions side by side with your early Marvel work and anyone that thinks that old stuff was better would be blind. I mean, both periods are great because what you lacked in skill back then you made up for with energy and innovation and verve, but you're a lot better illustrator now.

Edited by Shane Matlock on 07 October 2017 at 2:42pm
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Eric Kleefeld
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 3:51pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

John Byrne:

 QUOTE:
This is the first time I have encountered "SJW". It reminds me of the time Shooter patted himself on the back by announcing on the Bullpen page that he was ordering all writers and artists to read the mail that came in for them.

SOMETHING WE WERE ALREADY DOING!!!

Thing is, the term is used to signal derision at anyone with an ounce of socially progressive thought in them. Considering how comic book superheroes from the very start were performing such amazing feats as punching Hitler, stopping the Klan, standing up against wife-beaters, protecting the environment, and advocating for women's equality, that means a whole lot of characters were created to be literal warriors for social justice!

The only time you'll hear somebody call themselves a "social justice warrior" is to mock the idea that this would be a bad thing.
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Paul Greer
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

2 minutes.
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Eric Kleefeld
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 4:00pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Peter Martin:

 QUOTE:
And then, of course, the claim that you just stopped caring in the mid-90s, that you were just 'phoning it in'. The laziest, most subjective criticism to hand. There quite a few compliments in the video, but they are all more than a little backhanded.

A person has every right to their opinion/taste of liking a creator's output more (or not as much) during certain periods. This goes for comics, music, movies, novels, etc.

But you can't go assuming that someone was "phoning it in," or look into their mind and imagine that they no longer cared. Talk about a major presumption.
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 5:49pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

"...and then in the mid-90s he [John Byrne] kinda just fell apart as an artist."

That's when I stopped watching it.

Fell apart as an artist.

Fell apart...?!?!

I can't see anything wrong with personally preferring any one artist's period over another. I have my preferences. But they don't mean anything as a judgment on the quality of the art!

This youtube boob prefers, he says, the Namor-era JB. I don't take it as coincidental that he opines JB's art "fell apart" (sheesh!) immediately after this. So often, too often, a fan will judge that his favorite period is also the best period.

"...fell apart..."





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Peter Martin
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 5:51pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

All said, I do feel the art on Namor was, not to put too fine a point on it, the dog's bollocks.
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 6:15pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

There's a great many Marvel fans who now want the company to return to the kind of stories JB and other greats were making in the 80's and 90's. They want it so much that they would be very happy to see the current editorial regime completely replaced. The bad news is that these are also the "Byrne's old stuff was better" crowd. 
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 6:24pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

The "SJW Marvel" thing is part of a big flame war on Twitter and Youtube between Marvel editors, writers and conservative-leaning critics. Basically, Marvel's current stories have become overtly Far Left, which seems to the be the final straw for many readers. They are finally saying what has been obvious for years, that whatever That Company is, it isn't Marvel. Unhappy fans isn't something that Marvel normally cares about. But what is different now is that Marvel's readership has dwindled to the point that the aforementioned Youtube reviewer has more subscribers than most of Marvel's books. In a few months he's gained 40K followers. If he continues to grow at this rate, will he have enough clout to ruin whatever Marvel book he dislikes? 

Edited by Joe Zhang on 07 October 2017 at 6:30pm
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Jim Petersman
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

I love how he praises JB for being experimental and then turns right around and accuses him of just phoning in crap for a decade. I guess experimenting is ok only as long as he personally enjoys it.

He isn't, however, the first person I've heard talk about a "decline" in JB's art in the 90s, though. The best I've been able to figure out is people had a problem with the "chunkier" inking in this era. When I point out (what I at least perceive to be) the evolution in drapery, buildings/backgrounds, and more dynamic poses during this period, no one seems to care.

When JB used a thin line in some of his most recent work, the same folks proclaimed JB was back (or, as the guy in the video insinuated, IDW had JB back under control). When I mentioned the incredible evolution in his faces during this period, I just got blank stares.

Art, it would appear, is really just about line thickness to many, which is so weird to me. I suspect that this guy may fall into that category.
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Michael Sommerville
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 10:19pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

I think I have near every Byrne comic and do not understand the phoning it in comment. I do see the art adapt to the feel of the comic. The only drop in art quality is when he is not doing the drawing himself, with some exceptions. When did clean artwork become simple and cluttered become detailed. More lines does not always mean better when it comes to good art. When I look at costumes i will take the "simple" originals over the eyesores they use now.


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Robert Shepherd
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Posted: 07 October 2017 at 10:41pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

I was tired of this guys backhanded compliments from the start.

I've gotten to the point that I am tired of ALL critics, especially those who can not do the job/task/art/work of the one they are critiquing.

My new creed is simple. "Do Better".

If you can't do better quit trying to tear down others who can.

I've been a bit more relaxed lately because of this creed. I've even curbed my own opinions because of it.

Do Better. Pass it on.


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marios ksidonas
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Posted: 08 October 2017 at 1:54am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

--I like how he assumes you make $400-500K a year---
It reminded me when i was in my previous job and a customer approached me and said "you are working too many hours but at least you get well payed!". when i asked her how much she believed i was getting paid she told 5 times the amount i was really taking.5 TIMES!!!!!that day i realized how far the truth exists between of what they think the others about you and what is really happening!
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Allan Summerall
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Posted: 08 October 2017 at 5:52am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

I watched the whole thing. Backhanded compliments & snark is this gentleman's schtick it seems. Aside from that, that duo-shade was the bee's knees on "Namor". Loved that book and indeed, some of JB's finest work.
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John Byrne
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Beam Me Up, Scotty!

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 08 October 2017 at 6:36am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

I'm the first to acknowledge that my work has had its highs and lows. One of the down sides of not being a literal "art robot".

Problem is, so many "fans" just don't like to change their minds. (Perhaps they think it hurts.) Once they lock into a buzz phrase, they will not let go. That's why we see those who chant "his old stuff was better" embarrassing themselves by assuming recent work is previously unseen "old stuff".

Assuming embarrassment is actually possible for these chowder heads!

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