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Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
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Posted: 09 November 2017 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

As I imply elsewhen, I'm hopeful that this "newfound" willingness to come forward will cause great change in a positive sense for those unfortunate enough to have gone through these horrible experiences.

I think this "coming out," so to speak, will keep at bay the vast majority of predators... Though not all. That is virtually impossible.

That said, also as I imply somewhere else, I think it is a HUGE mistake to declare someone as guilty just because there are a lot of voices being heard.

Some just MAY deserve it, but how can anyone with a clear conscience believe that justice is being served based only on allegations?

History has already proven that "majority rules" doesn't always amount to fair play, so to speak, so those continuing to rely on "How can x-number be wrong?" or "Where there's smoke there's fire..." still prove nothing... in the end.

Yes, it has been established that this very strange & often arbitrary "court of public opinion" believes their "voices" should count, but as a wise man once said (paraphrasing)... "Opinions count... INFORMED opinions."
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 1:05pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Louis C.K. Apologizes for Sexual Harassment: Read His Full Statement

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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I'm still waiting for the people who are innocent to show up, Paul. So far pretty much everyone who's been charged by multiple women with sexual misconduct, harassment, abuse, and/or rape has admitted guilt or some culpability with a few exceptions. I don't think the courts are the only arbitrator of guilt as many guilty people have walked free with the right legal representation discrediting the women that were abused and playing off the inherent system of using fame to dictate sympathy. If "Dr." Cosby is eventually found not guilty, I'm sure in your mind that will mean he's innocent and all the women who accused him of raping them were lying and you were right all along. And it won't. It will simply mean he's innocent in the law's eyes. The court of public opinion can still bury "innocent" men just like it did with OJ when he became a virtual pariah.

The number of accusers absolutely does matter from a perception standpoint, because too many people dismiss allegations because they don't want to believe their favorite celebrity is guilty. If it's one or just a few women, you might be able to say it could be some sort of revenge scenario from jilted ex-lovers or rejected women or those seeking some sort of payday through a settlement, but when the kind of numbers we've seen with folks like Weinstein or your beloved Cos, I'm sorry, you can't say that all those women are lying and it's a conspiracy. Who do you think actually benefits from Cosby being found guilty and having his career and fan base destroyed? These women aren't trying to besmirch a great man. They're trying to get some sense of justice so they can move on with their lives.

Look, I'm a fan of both Louis CK and Kevin Spacey's work, but at no point have I ever thought any of the men or women were lying about them. And since they've both admitted it, they absolutely weren't. But neither of these guys was accused of raping over 30 people either. 

I agree that lynch mobs and witchhunts are a bad idea, but, again, where are the innocent folks who've been vindicated and redeemed when this many allegations arise? As I stated earlier in this thread sometimes the court of public opinion is the only one where some of these women find any justice once statute of limitations have expired or the celebrities' team of expensive lawyers got them off without any conviction.


Edited by Shane Matlock on 10 November 2017 at 3:13pm
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 3:12pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

What is the age of consent in the US then? In the UK, no offence would have been committed and whilst tabloids would enjoy the titillation, I'm not sure anyone's careers would be over. 

****

In my state of Kentucky the age of consent is 16 so the Rob Lowe with a 16 year old girl sex would have been legal, but the filming of said sex still constitutes child pornography. I know it doesn't make a lot of sense and that in UK it is 16 for both the sex and photographs/video of said act. As others have said, the age of consent varies from state to state from 16 to 18 in the US, but any kind of recording or photograph of a sexual nature involving those under 18 is a felony.

I believe with Lowe too he may have stated he didn't realize the girl was 16 and it was a one time offense for him. And, yeah, totally different cultural climate then that was much more permissive and forgiving, in some cases detrimentally so as it allowed abusers and rapists to continue for decades.
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 3:21pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

This case where Danny Masterson is accused of raping 4 women really perplexes me, because while Netflix fired Spacey within a week of his accusers coming forward, they have yet to even respond to the Masterson story or done anything about it. Masterson stars on the Ranch on Netflix. It also illustrates how utterly abhorrent the Church of Scientology is, where women that are members are not even allowed to accuse the male members of rape without being labeled "suppresive" and being hounded and discredited by the church. What a way to enable and perpetuate rape and abuse. See also: the Catholic church and pedophilia.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/danny-masterson-rape-ac cusations_us_59fa8410e4b01b474048242a


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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 3:24pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Courts are imperfect like everything in our world. Innocent men and women are jailed, while criminals too often escape justice. For the sake of a civilized society, we are supposed to respect the law and the rulings of the courts, but it doesn't necessarily mean the law or the courts are always right. In fact, laws can and do change because they were lacking in some way.

I don't condone vigilante justice, or lynch mob mentality, but to suggest that individuals can't reasonably conclude for themselves the guilt of someone based on substantial public knowledge of a case unless a court rules specifically that the alleged criminal is indeed guilty is nonsense. No, people aren't always correct about such things, but then, neither are the courts always correct, or sometimes things like statutes of limitations actually allow criminals to escape justice.

On that matter, statute of limitation laws have a place in the law, but I personally believe that shouldn't involve violent crimes, such as rape, and certainly murder.

In most every instance with these high-profile sexual abuse cases recently there has been several people either alleging that the person being accused is guilty, or others who have come out backing up the victims' claims. I think there is enough evidence in some of these news stories for the average person tom reach a reasonable conclusion of whether or not the stories are true. A court verifying that is something we all would like to see happen, but just because there is not an official verdict (and sometimes, even when there is one) doesn't mean people can't come to their own conclusion, nor that their conclusion is the wrong one.


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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 11:40am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Matt Reed: It's no surprise that Warner
Brothers ISN'T putting Joss Whedon front
and center in its marketing of JUSTICE
LEAGUE. What would have been considered a
coup in any other year but this by getting
the director of the AVENGERS movies to
direct their rivals signature team, Whedon
is now an anchor. DC/Warners doesn't want
him within a thousand feet of their film
for fear accusations will resurface about
their director's own predilection toward
unwanted sexual advances of women.

======
Has Whedon been accused of sexual
harassment? I've read the articles, and
while it's VERY possible that it could
have taken place, it reads differently to
me. Whedon's ex-wife claims infidelity.
The article mentions aggressive, hungry
women looking to get ahead.

That can go either way. True, he could be
using his role as producer to commit
sexual harassment or it could be women
offering sexual favors for a role. I know
it happens, I've had an employee attempt
this with me once.

We may very well, at some point have him
grouped in with these other creeps, but if
we are going to include celebrities that
cheated on there spouse to this
discussion, the thread is going to be
thousands of pages long.

As for him promoting JUSTICE LEAGUE,
Snyder is still the director of record.
With both directors involved, it would be
poor taste on Warner Bros part to have one
out there and not the other. Snyder has
pretty much divorced himself from the
film.
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Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 11:58am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

@Shane Matlock: If someone admits guilt, then there is no debate necessary. I will not belabor that point, for obvious reasons.

And regarding your conclusion jumping about me... What's that OLD saying about assumptions?

I've expressed my views repeatedly & they do NOT disregard possibilities of innocence or guilt, lies or truths, etc.

I do NOT believe that someone should be considered a pariah (etc.) based ONLY on allegations. I'm fully aware that it's still going to happen, but I will NOT support such a stance.

And if the accusers find any sort of comfort through a court of public opinion, then that's truly great for them.

-----
@Matt Hawes: I agree with your points.

My own personal view is that even if I believed an accuser 100% (and trust me, I know whereof I speak), there is always two sides to every story & unless the accused admits to the crime, that side of the story SHOULD be taken into consideration... And in some cases, it's not.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

We have actual courts for a reason.  To adjudicate these things.  And we have criminal codes to make another important distinction, between things that are actually illegal and need to receive judicial punishment, and, for example, just being an asshole.  Part of the issue I have now is that in the midst of the piling on, accusations of very different scale are getting lumped together.  Howard Stern making fat jokes at Carnie Wilson in front of her then boyfriend is getting thrown in the same basket as Weinstein committing rape.  As mentioned in this thread, Whedon sleeping around with young starlets while married is getting lumped together with Spacey groping teens.  Even what Louis CK did, which is perverse and certainly bad behavior isn't on the same level as the actual rapes that many of these men are accused of.  Winona Ryder even chimed in in the midst of this to say that Mel Gibson once made a joke about her being Jewish when he was drunk at a party.  Yeah, we all know Mel does that garbage, but that's not parallel or on par with these other cases. 

Edited by Steve De Young on 11 November 2017 at 12:28pm
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Part of the issue I have now is that in the midst of the piling on, accusations of very different scale are getting lumped together.

ó-

I donít think they are being lumped together as being equally bad. They are being outed together as examples of the culture of abuse that enables bad behavior. I donít think most people believe what Louis CK did is on the level of what Weinstein did, but thereís a clear line between them with regard to how a person in power can abuse his position and silence the accusations of the abuses. 
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Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 1:51pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Unfortunately there WILL be those that DO lump things together, no matter what "level" of bad behavior is put forth.

Fortunately, these close-minded subjects will be in the minority... right?
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Jabari Lamar
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply



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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

I do think as the revelations are coming out there are too many that are just poor decisions made decades ago rather than actual criminal abuse that's never been addressed or punished.

Anyway, now George Takei is in the spotlight for something that allegedly happened back in 1981.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/ct-sexual-miscon duct-george-takei-richard-dreyfuss-gary-goddard-20171111-sto ry.html 


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Wilson Mui
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Iím not a fan of Louis C.K. and think what he did was terrible, but I donít
understand why people are saying his statement wasnít an apology. He
admitted to what he did and said he was remorseful.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

I donít
understand why people are saying his statement wasnít an apology.
----------------------------------------------------------
Because this is turning into a witch hunt, so there's nothing someone can say.  If you've done anything vaguely in this realm, you must be destroyed.  Its one thing when that attitude is applied to rape and molestation, its entirely another when its directed at behavior that, however, disgusting, isn't illegal.
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David Miller
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 7:45pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

We'll probably be hearing a lot more about behavior intended as cloddish come-ons by one party interpreted as sexual harassment by the other. Cartoonist Brian Wood got in trouble a few years ago for what sounded to me like everyday examples of a guy awkwardly behaving as a caddish philanderer in what he thought were social relationships, with women who were trying to interact with him professionally at bars, parties and conventions.
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

So far it seems that some real lizards are being dragged out into the light, which of course is a good thing. But at a certain point this unstoppable freight train of justice will run out of track to roll on. Some celebrities  might be accused of just one incident, with no correlating accounts. Is the accuser just brushed aside? Is the accused turned into an outcast? Already accusations much less serious than sexual predation are being made. My fear is all this will give rise to a weaponized form of Political Correctness. Those on the Far Left, given their take-no-prisoners attitude, will not hesitate to use it to get whatever they want. 

Edited by Joe Zhang on 11 November 2017 at 8:09pm
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 8:24pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

I donít  understand why people are saying his statement wasnít an apology. 

----------------------------------------------------------&n bsp;

Because this is turning into a witch hunt, so there's nothing someone can say.  If you've done anything vaguely in this realm, you must be destroyed.  Its one thing when that attitude is applied to rape and molestation, its entirely another when its directed at behavior that, however, disgusting, isn't illegal.

óó

No, itís because he made the apology about himself instead of just saying that he was wrong and shouldnít have done that to the women. These allegations have been around for years, to the point that whenever there was a blind item about a comedian behaving badly toward a women, Louis CKís name came up. And yet heís ignored or denied them until the current environment have made them impossible to ignore. He did not address that at all.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

And yet heís ignored or denied them until the current environment have made them impossible to ignore. He did not address that at all.
----------------------------------------------
He called all of the women in the article several years ago, before the story came out, and apologized to them personally.  If you read the details of the case, its clear that he realizes that he's a disturbed person and has been making at least furtive attempts to get help for some time now.  Like I said, his behavior is still disgusting, but there is literally nothing he could say or do at this point that would cause the general public to say, "Okay, get out of the public eye and go get help..."  They want blood, and they're not distinguishing between an asshole like CK and a rapist like Weinstein or Cosby.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 8:55pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Because this is turning into a witch hunt, so there's nothing someone can say.  If you've done anything vaguely in this realm, you must be destroyed.  Its one thing when that attitude is applied to rape and molestation, its entirely another when its directed at behavior that, however, disgusting, isn't illegal.

*******
Unless youíre a Republican. Then the Bible says itís ok. 
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 11 November 2017 at 9:50pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

He called all of the women in the article several years ago, before the story came out, and apologized to them personally.  If you read the details of the case, its clear that he realizes that he's a disturbed person and has been making at least furtive attempts to get help for some time now.  Like I said, his behavior is still disgusting, but there is literally nothing he could say or do at this point that would cause the general public to say, "Okay, get out of the public eye and go get help..."  They want blood, and they're not distinguishing between an asshole like CK and a rapist like Weinstein or Cosby.

óó

Iíve been aware of this long before the current uproar. I am actually rooting for Louis CK to rehabilitate himself and his image. That being said, his apology was problematic and insufficient, and that has nothing to do with your assertion that people are equating his behavior to Weinstein and Cosby. His apology couldíve been better. 
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 12 November 2017 at 1:18am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

 Steve De Young wrote:
As mentioned in this thread, Whedon sleeping around with young starlets while married is getting lumped together with Spacey groping teens.

Oh please, Steve.  Since I'm the one that brought it up, I'll address it.  I'm certainly not lumping Whedon in with child molesters and calling those actions equal.  What I am saying is that there is a culture of men in positions of power taking advantage of that power to get what they want:, masturbating in front of women, cheating on their wives, groping children and physically assaulting women.  Because I mention them in a thread like this does not, in any way, mean that I think they're on the same level.  I expect people who read this thread to have the ability to figure that out for themselves without me having to qualify it.  But there is broad discussion to be had, as it's being done right now in workplaces across the country not only in Hollywood, about appropriate actions and responses to everything.  That this thread has mentioned and discussed a broad "coming out" if you will of individuals who have felt abused, threatened, hurt, humiliated and violated in whatever form that abuse took place doesn't at all automatically make them all the same nor lump them together.  None of this would have happened had a group of women not bravely come forward and spoken about Weinstein which, in turn, gave others the courage to do it themselves.  I hope we're smart enough to reason the differences instead of doing what you just wrote: assume that people like me are "lumping" them all together.  
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 12 November 2017 at 1:31am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

 Steve De Young wrote:
...his behavior is still disgusting, but there is literally nothing he could say or do at this point that would cause the general public to say"Okay, get out of the public eye and go get help..."  They want blood, and they're not distinguishing between an asshole like CK and a rapist like Weinstein or Cosby.

Jesus, Steve, get your head out of your ass.  People are distinguishing between the two.  That they're mentioned in the same breath because the allegations are all sexual in nature doesn't mean they're being judged exactly the same way. Weinstein, Cosby and Toback will not work again in Hollywood.  Their careers are toxic.  Spacey is still TBD but I'd bet that it's going to be very hard for him to come back.  But Louie CK will be like Mel Gibson. He's going to wander in the wilderness for a period of time and then people will forgive and/or forget.  Gibson was a pariah in town (Hollywood) for quite a long time and yet had a film he directed up for an Oscar last year and is in a high profile comedy coming out in a couple of weeks.  It will all shake itself out in the long run.  Stop getting hung up on what you perceive (wrongly in my opinion) that of everything being judged in the exact same manner.  It's not.  It simply is not.  Let emotions, others as well as your own, calm down and you'll see.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 12 November 2017 at 1:45am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

 Stephen Churay wrote:
As for him promoting JUSTICE LEAGUE, 
Snyder is still the director of record. 
With both directors involved, it would be 
poor taste on Warner Bros part to have one 
out there and not the other. Snyder has 
pretty much divorced himself from the 
film.

It would be fantastic if the way you thought about studio PR departments is the way they really work.  It's not.  WB doesn't give two shits about "poor taste" having just a single director talk about JL.  As I said, it would be a coup for them to have "stolen" a director from Marvel who made over two billion dollars via Avengers to finish production on a rival's film. At any other time, he would have been front and center not only for that but because he's got a geek pedigree a mile long.  His name sells projects.  Period.  But in this current climate Warners doesn't want the stink of even mild sexual impropriety to hurt their film.  They just don't.  It's a potential time bomb. Trust me. 

Just to be clear to the Steve De Young's of the world (because I apparently need to add this qualifier) I'm not calling what Whedon has been accused of in the same league or exactly the same or lumping him in with rapists or child molesters.  It's sexual impropriety during a time where (thankfully) that's not cool and WB doesn't want the stink of that on their tentpole film. 
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Jason Scott
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Posted: 12 November 2017 at 5:38am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

I agree that that's a good point to make about Whedon, Stephen Churay I think it's very telling that not one actress, or female production staff have come forward in the time since his ex-wife voiced her criticism, to support any of that.

I mean you take for instance someone like Charisma Carpenter. She is still angry towards Whedon about her being let go from Angel. (She spoke about it at an event I was at this summer.)
Now given her anger there, the fact that she worked for him on two of his biggest shows, and her own feelings on sexual assaults from almost being the victim of one, (there was actually a daytime movie about it) wouldn't she be the first person to pipe up about it if he'd fostered that kind of environment on his shows?
But there's been no follow-up from her or anyone else. And there was certainly none of the actresses avoiding being photographed with him at the BTVS 20th anniversary shoot this year. (Unlike Nicholas Brendon who some wouldn't be photographed with, after that reported incident with his wife.)

But yeah, this is getting off topic. We probably shouldn't be discussing it all on this thread. But I'm glad that you clarified your view Matt. As there are other sites where folks really do want to throw them together as the same thing.
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