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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 13 October 2017 at 7:12pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I cannot understand what a fan could have gained from having such concerns. Superman met Spider-Man. Twice. They both live on the east coast. Such a meeting was inevitable. I don't know what fan concerns existed at the time, but it sounds like such fans had far too much time on their hands - and editors should have ignored such concerns.

•••

Concern sprang from the minds of those unimaginative fans who ask where the Avengers were the first time Galactus stopped by. When Superman met Spider-Man, they wanted to know why it hadn't happened a hundred times before.

That's right lads! Keep squeezing! You'll wring all the fun out of these things yet!

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 13 October 2017 at 7:15pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

When Superman met Spider-Man, they wanted to know why it hadn't happened a hundred times before.

***

I've heard that question asked a few times.

Bizarre. Don't we all meet someone for the first time? My best friend is called Paul. There had to be a first time I met him, right? I feel like I'm missing some point that I have not yet been able to fathom.

I really don't know why editors would have even considered letting fan concerns dictate such things.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 13 October 2017 at 10:10pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

In the case of Roy Thomas, the editor of What If?, I would guess that his concerns largely echo those of the fans. He does take tremendous pride, after all, in his place amongst that community and raised questions of this nature back when he was a fan. He's also is one of those continuity-conscious fix-it men rushing towards every opportunity to tie this event to that one, and this character to another. 

After all, as Dick Grayson, Robin HAS TO be the cousin of Chuck Grayson, Robotman Bob Crane's lab assistant, right? I mean, right? And Sandra Knight, the buxom late-40's queen of the Fox Features headlight covers HAS TO be the cousin of Ted Knight, All-American Comics' star and JSA member. Just HAS TO! I mean, how is that NOT FUN?? That's where all the fun in this stuff is, right? Right? Oh, man, if only DC had the rights to Hogan's Heroes and the Mary Tyler Moore Show... Now THAT would be a blast!!

And hey, if Thomas paid no attention to fan concerns or fan publications, he'd never have seen Mark Gruenwald's Omniverse and started What If? in the first place.


Edited by Brian Hague on 13 October 2017 at 11:14pm
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 14 October 2017 at 5:08am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Mark Gruenwald’s Omniverse?
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 14 October 2017 at 5:40am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

A fanzine by Mark Gruenwald, Brian. You can find a bit of information via Google about it. There's a discussion about it on a couple of forums. 




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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 14 October 2017 at 6:14am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I don't want to criticize creative people (those mentioned) who, on their worst days, have one hundred times the creative abilities I could muster on my best day. I just don't like where this all headed.
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Lars Sandmark
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Posted: 14 October 2017 at 6:29am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I do like that Omniverse cover. The artist really captured the distinct art styles of the different 'eras'.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 14 October 2017 at 11:08am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

FWIW, "Avengers Forever" has a reference to "Superman vs The Amazing Spider-Man" as well... one of the time portals shows Doc Ock giving a piggy-back ride to a certain bald headed evil archvillain.

Sometimes, I think some of these crossovers or origins can be fun... but it can be just as much fun to NOT have any link. Dick Grayson and Paul Grayson are related? Yeah, that's kinda fun. Superman is NOT related to Two-Face (on Earth-2)? That's kinda fun too. (FUN TRIVIA: Two-Face of Earth-2 is Harvey Kent. Um... nah, I guess that's not all that fun, is it?)

But I don't like the slavish adherence to the idea. Why didn't the Avengers show up when Galactus first appeared? Where were The Fantastic Four when the Serpent Society was in the process of taking over the country? Why didn't Spider-Man show up at Superman's funeral when they're on the same Earth? JUST. BECAUSE.

I find it enjoyable when some of these occur... but when it gets ham handed and forced, then it's not so good.

COROLLARY: A friend of mine had the issue of Omniverse, and the second I saw it, I saw the questions inherent... and the Earth-1/Earth-2 explanation only goes so far. Thirty-odd years later, I think Kurt Busiek may have remembered and used it for his Final Crisis mini, "Legion of Three Worlds." At least, that's the first thing that I thought of.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 14 October 2017 at 11:17am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

But I don't like the slavish adherence to the idea. Why didn't the Avengers show up when Galactus first appeared? Where were The Fantastic Four when the Serpent Society was in the process of taking over the country? Why didn't Spider-Man show up at Superman's funeral when they're on the same Earth? JUST. BECAUSE.

***

The problem, Eric, is that lack of logic from fans.

Why didn't Superman mention Spider-Man previously? Well, how do we know he didn't (off-panel)? Maybe, unseen to our eyes, Clark and Lois talked about that "web-slinger in New York" whilst relaxing in the canteen at the Daily Planet. Maybe after Spider-Man defeated the Sinister Six (the 60s tale), and after the last panel we saw in that issue, Parker and Mary Jane discussed that "man of steel from Metropolis".

We don't see EVERY part of a character's life. We don't see Bruce Wayne on the toilet; we don't see Peter Parker having a shower (he couldn't, anyway, because spiders cannot get out of the bath); and we don't see that many instances of Clark Kent sitting having breakfast in his apartment. We see a fraction of their lives, mainly the exciting parts.

Perhaps, off-panel, Superman has mentioned Spider-Man many times. And vice versa. As for funerals, well maybe Peter Parker was there, as incognito as possible. Only so much art one can fit into a panel, perhaps he and Steve Rogers showed up unassumingly.

Just believe, I say.

As for "Where were the Avengers when Galactus invaded?" or "Why isn't Iron Man showing up to stop the Rhino when he's attacking Spider-Man?", well firstly there'd have been no point in having an FF VS Galactus tale if everyone from the Avengers to Santa Claus had shown up; secondly, it's a non-question (at least in the minds of some), but if one really wants to explore it, perhaps they were busy. Maybe they were off-world at the time - and maybe, off-panel, they visited the Baxter Building after returning, with Cap saying to Reed, "Tell me all about this invasion we missed..."

If the questions are asked, and they shouldn't be, there are answers.

Oh, does anyone here know Paul, my friend? My best friend? No? Well, he exists. Why haven't you heard about him before? Why have none of my posts mentioned him or our friendship? Well, like the first Superman/Spider-Man crossover, there has to be a first time for everything. We became acquainted in 2006 whilst working at a tax office. Now you know. Perhaps pedantic comic fans out there can ask why Robbie never mentioned Paul previously. ;-)


Edited by Robbie Parry on 14 October 2017 at 11:19am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 October 2017 at 11:28am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

The day Mark Gruenwald started working at Marvel was a dark day indeed for the House of Ideas.

We had no way of knowing that, of course. We all just thought Mark was a fun guy with an encyclopedic knowledge of comics plus a few wacky ideas. We could not know that he would slowly rise thru the company to a point where he could implement those ideas.

Mark never embraced Len Wein's famous maxim: The first story you'd do as a fan should be the last story you'd do as a pro.

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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 14 October 2017 at 7:33pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Found the cover of the second issue of Omniverse. Interesting to read Jerry Ordway did some of the art for Omniverse and that Dean Mullaney who would later start Eclipse Comics and Mike Gold who later became the editor of First Comics worked on Omniverse.

 
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 14 October 2017 at 7:38pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

And here's the first cover. I believe that first image featuring this cover that I posted earlier was an ad for this. Nice cover by Peter Poplaski.

 





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