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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 12 October 2017 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Okay, I picked up a copy of "Spidey Super Stories" #15 a few months back in a collection. It is cover dated February 1976, but came out in 1975. I figured this has to be the earliest appearance of a (then) New X-Men member outside of the title "The Uncanny X-Men." Nightcrawler appeared in "The Amazing Spider-Man" #161 (along with cameo appearances of Wolverine and Colosssus), and the team teamed up with Spider-Man in "Marvel Team-Up Annual" #1, but those were both later in 1976.

So, looking up things on Google, I came upon the Marvel Wikia entry for "Spidey Super Stories" #15 (NOTE: For those that aren't aware, this is NOT a Wikipedia page). Well, the page says this is the first appearance of Storm! Um... what?

So, I clicked for more info... Apparently, someone out there (is this official with Marvel?) considers this Storm to be a different Storm than that in the "Uncanny X-Men." I get that it's not cannon, but, really... a "different" character? She is referred to as Storm from Earth-57780.

Yeah.

When did Marvel fans start to treat the Marvel Universe like the DC Universe? DC had the multiple Earths, and except for some things like Counter-Earth, Marvel used to avoid this sort of thing. I knew about Marvel-616, but how far does this now go?

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John Byrne
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Posted: 12 October 2017 at 9:54pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

At one point Chris and I were kicking around the idea of doing the "real" version of that SPIDEY story in MARVEL TEAM-UP.
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 12 October 2017 at 10:01pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

That would have been awesome!
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David Miller
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Posted: 12 October 2017 at 10:33pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

This is what you get with a wiki.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 12 October 2017 at 10:34pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

With the arrival of Roy Thomas and other comics fans to the ranks of Marvel's writing staff, the "one world and it's the world outside your window" structure of Marvel began to unravel quickly. There's Counter-Earth, yes, but also Earth-S and Earth-A to contend with. Then came "What If" and every one of those worlds was out there somewhere in the great Marvel Multiverse. They could even cross over with one another. There was also the one where Ben Grimm was cured of being the Thing by his now-parallel-future-Earth counterpart.

DC's multiple Earths get blown out of proportion by Marvelites. There was Earth-2, yes, and then Earth-3, the villainous Earth. After those came a tale of Earth-A which was an alternate timeline construction of Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt under the command of the criminal Earth-1 Johnny. That Earth vanished at the end of the story. There was a Mirror-Earth in the Flash which was only visited twice that I know of and then, sadly, the bordering-on-unprofessional Earth-Prime, where DC staffers could interact with the DC characters. 

Earth-S came about to accommodate the Fawcett characters and their unique, more light-hearted worldview. Then, Earth-X was invented for the then-recently-acquired Quality Comics. Earth-B was a never-acknowledged-on-panel letters column joke and Earths-C and C-Minus were ho-ho-ho-stop-it-Roy-my-sides-are-aching, self-impressed yukfests from a defecting Marvel staffer havin' a bit of fun at his new employer's expense. 

At worst, that brought us up to nine extant alternate worlds by the time of Crisis, none of which caused any storytelling problems to the rest of the books unless a story happened to be set directly on one of them. And even then, the explanation for what was occurring was right there on panel every issue. No muss, no fuss. No real confusion, except perhaps for Marv Wolfman, who just didn't seem capable of wrapping his head around all that. 

Most of the parallel worlds featured unique characters with unique characteristics. Uncle Sam and co. on Earth-X had no counterparts except for Plastic Man and that's not too confusing, but maybe it is for some. Earth-S's Marvel Family had a couple of Earth-1 counterparts who appeared just once. Too confusing? I don't see how, but hey, maybe some folks are just not up to the challenge... There's an Eighties-era Earth-1 Julius Schwartz who showed up exactly once, but for the most part, DC parallel Earths did not contain lookalike counterparts, the way, say, nearly every issue of "What If" did, with Galactii, Cosmic Cubes, and Serpent Crowns multiplying alongside them.

Meanwhile, Marvel began to gorge itself on "alternate timelines" and futures where representatives came back to the original. Sales events began to build around new ones forming, many that were close to, but not quite, versions of previously established futures, and the counterparts began piling up at a precipitous rate. Then the comic Exiles came along, every issue set upon an ever-expanding list of parallel realities with new and different Sue Storms and Nightcrawlers and Blinks and Wolverines... Cross-Time Councils of Kangs and Legions of Infinite Reed Richards began to glut the titles... Cue the Ultimate Universe...

It is disingenuous to pretend that DC somehow has a weakness for this storytelling construct that Marvel wisely rises above. Yeah, for maybe the first ten years Marvel avoided these pitfalls, but then, so did DC for it's first ten or fifteen. Sadly, since Crisis, the very thing designed to clear up the problem, their indulgences have most assuredly sunk to the depths of Marvel's post-DOFP "Crisis of Infinite Timelines" w-w-wackiness. 

How far do Marvel's depredations continue to go along these lines? I know that Marvel catalogers, especially those of the online variety, cannot get enough of them. It's very au courant to cite every possible variation of Marvel's IPs as a separate earth. Gaiman's 1602 is one. Earth-X is another, maybe a number of others. Nicholas Hammond's Peter Parker has his own no doubt. Anyone here see the animated "Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends" show on Saturday Mornings in the Eighties? No doubt you'll be tickled to learn that they were all massacred during one of Dan Slott's "Crisis of Infinite Spider-Men" storylines from a short time ago. Even Ms. Lion's bloody corpse was shown on-panel! Ho-ho! Such fun! I wonder if Aunt May's murdered body was just downstairs! Wouldn't that just be a riot?

Now, of course, if you want, you can always just presume that in some other timeline on that parallel Earth, everyone survived, but that would technically give you yet another parallel Earth with lookalike counterparts...

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Brian Hague
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Posted: 12 October 2017 at 10:48pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

As for first appearances, Spidey Super-Stories #11 from 1975 did give up Marvel's first Spider-Woman in the character of Valerie the Librarian from the Electric Company. 



Of course, she's clearly one of those SJW-appeasing diversity characters Marvel keeps throwing at us these days, so we can all just ignore her and wish everything would go back to normal, right?


Edited by Brian Hague on 12 October 2017 at 10:48pm
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 13 October 2017 at 5:04am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

And then there's this...

Here's a story from PHANTOM STRANGER #15 (Oct., 1971), written by none other than New X-Men creator Len Wein and featuring an African woman named Ororo!  (She's a doctor/scientist type here but, you know, the Multiverse and everything!  Probably dyes her hair.)  Jim Aparo drew the story, but I guess that's supposed to be her on the cover too, drawn by famed X-MEN artist Neal Adams--so he technically gave us the first view of Ororo.  Two X-MEN legends gave us an Ororo at DC four years before Marvel did.


Edited by Eric Jansen on 13 October 2017 at 5:08am
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 13 October 2017 at 8:01am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Bloody hell, how convoluted. Earth-57780? Who on earth came up with designations like that?

I just preferred the shared earth approach. I loved it when Spider-Man showed up in a TRANSFORMERS comic (or was it the Transformers showing up in a SPIDER-MAN comic?). Wow, these guys live on the same earth. 

Having some book/person later designate it as having occurred on Earth-246534 is, well, what's the point?
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 13 October 2017 at 8:46am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Alan Moore brought a concept to Marvel UK. The rest of Marvel just had to follow, because it came from Alan Moore.

It was OK in Captain Britain but did not need to become such a mill stone around Marvel. I really don't understand why they do these things. Kids just don't care about them.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 13 October 2017 at 9:29am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Alan Moore? What happened exactly, James?
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 13 October 2017 at 10:06am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

There were a lot of different Earths and Moore used a numbering system and designated the MU we’ve grown up reading the 616 universe. 
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 13 October 2017 at 10:32am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Well, thank you very much, Mr Moore! :/

Talk about sucking the fun out of it all; talk about treating the comic universe like some science project where every jar has to have a designated set of numbers/letters; and talk about missing the point.

That guy could never resist tinkering. You could buy him a near-perfect car and he'd have everything changed. It's a shame an editor or senior person didn't say no to such indulgences.
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