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John Byrne
Robot Wrangler
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 11662
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 5:46am | IP Logged | 1
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Yesterday's memorial service for Will Eisner was underwritten by DC Comics. Paul Levitz was present to host and play Master of Ceremonies. During the many speeches made on Eisner's behalf it was noted that, in a career spanning seventy years he had never missed a deadline. Not so much as once. In fact, he had declined high paying gigs if he felt he would not be able to deliver on time.So, here is my "challenge": If DC really wants to create a memorial to Will Eisner, and not merely pay lip service to the man and his career, it is time to fire all the prima donnas who cannot get their work in on time. It is time to boot the arrogant asses who are "growing roses" and restore, as much as we can, the industry Will Eisner helped create. That would be a suitable living memorial to the memory of such a great man.
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Cory Vandernet Byrne Robotics Member
Henchman
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 597
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 6:03am | IP Logged | 2
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Would hitting these prima donnas in the pocket book for a missed deadline have any effect? Let's say a $500 fine for every day the writer/penciller/inker goes over the deadline, and as much as I hate them, a return to fill-ins, it would keep the books on schedule and as an added bonus it would expose these slackers for what they are.
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Darragh Greene Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 March 2005 Location: Ireland Posts: 1812
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 6:11am | IP Logged | 3
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If DC really wants to create a memorial to Will Eisner, and not merely pay lip service to the man and his career, it is time to fire all the prima donnas who cannot get their work in on time. It is time to boot the arrogant asses who are "growing roses" and restore, as much as we can, the industry Will Eisner helped create.
I agree. One of the reasons I drifted away from comics a few years back was because I lost patience with artists who could not complete their workload or get it done on time. This either delayed the publication of the book, or the publisher had to find someone else to finish the work, thus disrupting the continuity of the artistic vision. Aesthetically, it is ugly because the integrity and harmony of the work is destroyed; professionally, it is inexcusable because it shows a lack of consideration and courtesy to both the publisher and the readership.
On the other hand, I do think certain projects might require longer than usual to achieve the perfection of the artist's vision; but these ought to be special projects, not part of the monthly grind, and they ought to be finished or substantially finished before they are solicited. It is plain common sense: solicit the work when it is complete or close to completion, not before.
Moralitas: For a monthly publication one must be a professional artisan; for a special (or even vanity) project one can be an artiste.
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Richard Siegel Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 04 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 906
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 6:19am | IP Logged | 4
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I bet late penalities would get those pencil stubbers popping. Wait til those 30 day nets become, in direct proportion to their lateness, 60 day nets for late pay.
And if Im late with my bills, I gotta pay 'late fees" so why not "late penalities"?
Of course anyone who whines about filling up 32 pages a month and being unable to deliver is simply "not professional" in my book.
Edited by Richard Siegel on 08 April 2005 at 6:20am
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Roger A Ott II Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 29 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5004
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 6:39am | IP Logged | 5
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Darragh Greene wrote:
| I do think certain projects might require longer than usual to achieve the perfection of the artist's vision; but these ought to be special projects, not part of the monthly grind, and they ought to be finished or substantially finished before they are solicited. It is plain common sense: solicit the work when it is complete or close to completion, not before. |
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Well said.
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Robin Taylor Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 959
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 6:47am | IP Logged | 6
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With all the comics that are late these days it makes me wonder what
other industrys are also following a similar paradigm, and how or if it
affects their bottom dollar.
Video games are perpetually late I am discovering, even high profile
ones like Gran Turismo 4 are late by YEARS and yet the games still
sell. It does seem though that the audience for video games are getting
used to the idea of delays and though never pleased about it, are not
surprised by delays. It seems the comic audience has developed a
similarily jaded outlook.
RT
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John Byrne
Robot Wrangler
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 11662
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:06am | IP Logged | 7
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Video games are perpetually late I am discovering, even high profile ones like Gran Turismo 4 are late by YEARS and yet the games still sell. It does seem though that the audience for video games are getting used to the idea of delays and though never pleased about it, are not surprised by delays. It seems the comic audience has developed a similarily jaded outlook.***** This is a large part of the problem. The industry -- mostly in the form of the Image boys -- has trained readers not only to expect books to be late, but to somehow think of late books as being superior, Much of this speaks to the basic ignorance of the consumer -- so many hardcore fans have no idea of the process by which comics are traditionally manufactured. Many are convinced that the whole thing happens in a very short space of time right before the book goes on sale. The notion of "lead time" is unknown, and that lead time was once about six months between project commencement and project completion is forgotten.* Part of the problem lies with editorial and marketing, who are forever scheduling books without taking into account the work that has to be done. (When I did the WORLD OF KRYPTON miniseries, DC wanted the first isse to come out on a specific date, and actually retrofitted it to the schedule, so the book was created late! Nevertheless, it did not ship late!) Most bizarre is when miniseries and graphic novels ship late. These are not tied to monthly schedules, and there is absolutely no reason for them to be put on the schedule until they are finished. No reason, that is, except the often unrealistic expectations of the "bottom line". Companies tend to spend next years money this year, and so schedule what they think will be big moneymakers with their eye solely on the pocket calculator. The ultimate foolishness of this is that they end up not making the money they have planned to make. As I commented yesterday, more money is made if 12 issues come out in a year instead of 8. Realistic scheduling would mean the books would ship when expected, and the companies would make the money that planned to make. No small part of that "realism", of course, falls back on the writers and artists, who must make themselves aware of just how much work they can honestly produce in a given amount of time. Accepting more work than can actually be done is simply irresponsible, as well as unprofessional. That latter is a word I would like to see the consumers add to their lexicon, and use as often as applicable. The prima donnas have had their time in the sun. Let the professionals back in.
*It is this ignorance and unawareness which so often leads to know-it-all (really know-nothing) "fans" holding forth on their perception of the quality of various books, assuming them to have been produced on a schedule that has nothing to do with the reality. Those who noted that OMAC looked "rushed", for instance, since it was delayed in shipping and so came out at the same time as a bunch of other stuff I had done over a protracted period. The assumption of the know-nothings was that everything that came out at the same time was done at the same time. The other end of this demented spectrum is those fools who genuinely believe the "growing roses" crap, and who think a book that ship six months late has got six months more work put into it. I recall an article in CELEBRITY magazine that referred to one of the rock star artists "taking a full day" to produce a page. Looking at his chronic lateness I commented that I had no trouble believing he produced only one page per day -- but looking at those pages, I refused to believe he actually invested a full working day in each.
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John McMahon Byrne Robotics Member
Membership Revoked
Joined: 21 September 2004 Location: Ireland Posts: 581
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:15am | IP Logged | 8
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John Byrne wrote:
| As I commented yesterday, more money is made if 12 issues come out in a year instead of 8. |
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You'd have to attach all kinds of qualifiers to that - for starters, 8
issues of The Ultimates by Millar/Hitch will bring in a lot more cash
than 12 issues of Doom Patrol - and will continue to do so through the
sales of collected editions for years to come (I don't read The
Ultimates myself).
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Charles Valderrama Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1138
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:15am | IP Logged | 9
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JB, is anyone at DC aware of the 'challenge'?
i think it IS time for DC to step up and enforce
real deadlines for their products. Bring back
professionalism in honor of Eisner.
-C!
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John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10000
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:26am | IP Logged | 10
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The Joe Kubert school emphasized meeting deadlines at all cost -- at
least they did 16-18 years ago. That was hammered home from day one,
class one, and one of the driving focuses (foci?) of the curriculum through
the entire program. The fact that the industry has degenerated to the
state that is in that prompts a consumate professional like John Byrne to
issue this challenge is utterly astounding to me.
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Richard Siegel Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 04 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 906
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:28am | IP Logged | 11
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Charles Valderrama wrote:
JB, is anyone at DC aware of the 'challenge'?
i think it IS time for DC to step up and enforce real deadlines for their products. Bring back professionalism in honor of Eisner.
-C! |
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I witnessed JB challenge Paul Levitz at the Eisner memorial. So, yeah they're aware of it.
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Todd Hembrough Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 4175
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:31am | IP Logged | 12
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John McMahon wrote:
John Byrne wrote:
| As I commented yesterday, more money is made if 12 issues come out in a year instead of 8. |
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You'd have to attach all kinds of qualifiers to that - for starters, 8
issues of The Ultimates by Millar/Hitch will bring in a lot more cash
than 12 issues of Doom Patrol - and will continue to do so through the
sales of collected editions for years to come (I don't read The
Ultimates myself).
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True, but 12 issues of the Ultimates would make more money that 8, and that is the apples to apples comparison.
T
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Jeff Gillmer Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 30 August 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1855
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:33am | IP Logged | 13
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This reminds me of my old broadcast copywriting class. We had an assignment due on a Monday, but one of the guys in class had some excuse (legit or not) about not having his, and said he would bring it in on Wednesday. Come Wednesday, he went up to the professor and proudly handed in the paper.
The professor promptly dropped it in the trash can. "The deadline was Monday. This is old news and doesn't mean anything now."
I think everybody in class learned something that day.
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10045
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:34am | IP Logged | 14
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John McMahon wrote:
John Byrne wrote:
| As I commented yesterday, more money is made if 12 issues come out in a year instead of 8. |
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You'd have to attach all kinds of qualifiers to that - for starters, 8
issues of The Ultimates by Millar/Hitch will bring in a lot more cash
than 12 issues of Doom Patrol - and will continue to do so through the
sales of collected editions for years to come (I don't read The
Ultimates myself).
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12 issues of the Ultimates would make Marvel 50% more money than
just 8 a year. THAT is what Byrne is saying. But you already knew that,
McMahon.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 08 April 2005 at 7:34am
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John McMahon Byrne Robotics Member
Membership Revoked
Joined: 21 September 2004 Location: Ireland Posts: 581
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:34am | IP Logged | 15
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No - 12 issues of The Ultimates by Millar/Hitch would make more money than 8 issues of The Ultimates by Millar/Hitch.
12 issues of The Ultimates by (say) Robert Kirkman/Dustin Nguyen wouldn't
come close to doing the same numbers as 8 by Millar/Hitch - anyone that
claims otherwise is delusional.
Edited by John McMahon on 08 April 2005 at 7:39am
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10045
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:37am | IP Logged | 16
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12 issues a year is 264 pages. If Hitch drew only a page a day he would
still have 100 days of the year free to do whatever he wants. Same for
Millar. What is the problem with asking them to be on time?
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John McMahon Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 21 September 2004 Location: Ireland Posts: 581
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:41am | IP Logged | 17
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None at all, and when they quit and walk across the road to DC, the
editor responsible can ask Joe Quesada not to fire him, pretty please
like.
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John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10000
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:45am | IP Logged | 18
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And when they get fired at DC for not meeting deadlines there, either,
maybe they'll get a clue and become professionals.
Edited by John Mietus on 08 April 2005 at 7:46am
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10045
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:46am | IP Logged | 19
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Which is why JB is challenging DC to stop playing that game with those fools.
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Steve Jones Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 25 August 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 548
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:47am | IP Logged | 20
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The problem of late books at DC is the responsibility of the management i.e. Paul Levitz & co. If DC were serious about tackling late books they would change the management with the instruction to fix it or else. Same goes for Marvel.
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John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10000
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:48am | IP Logged | 21
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The point is that there is an overwhelming lack of professionalism
throughout the industry -- artists, writers, editors, management -- that
is utterly appalling.
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John McMahon Byrne Robotics Member
Membership Revoked
Joined: 21 September 2004 Location: Ireland Posts: 581
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:49am | IP Logged | 22
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Joe Zhang wrote:
| Which is why JB is challenging DC to stop playing that game with those fools.
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It's a business. "Those fools" as you call im, are money in the
bank - DC are getting stomped badly enough by Marvel without firing the
few real big names they have working for them!
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Steve Jones Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 25 August 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 548
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:58am | IP Logged | 23
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John Mietus wrote:
The point is that there is an overwhelming lack of professionalism throughout the industry -- artists, writers, editors, management -- that is utterly appalling. |
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But it starts with management. From my own experience of working on IT projects, if the management is professional and competent then the project will be a success.
Management has allowed a culture of unprofessionalism to seep in to the industry. It's their job to put it right. I have disagreed with JB in the past over the fan-turned-pro idea, but maybe he is onto something if we take it a step further and say the problem is caused by the fan-turned-manager/editor.
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Matthew Hansel Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3320
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 8:02am | IP Logged | 24
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I agree, JB. In all of my news classes, sickness, hell, DEATH, was not an excuse to BLOW a deadline. If you blew a deadline, you more or less failed the class.
Man...imagine all the people that would no longer be on monthly books, or even working period, if they actually fired all the people who don't meet their deadlines.
More work for the likes of John Byrne, Denny O'Neil, Jim Aparo, Frank Miller, etc. who actually know HOW to meet a deadline.
Bravo to you JB. I hope that the powers that are at DC accept the challenge.
Matthew Hansel matthewphansel@mac.com
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Jeff Fettes Byrne Robotics R&D

Joined: 01 October 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 1255
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 8:13am | IP Logged | 25
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John McMahon wrote:
Joe Zhang wrote:
| Which is why JB is challenging DC to stop playing that game with those fools. |
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It's a business. "Those fools" as you call im, are money in the bank - DC are getting stomped badly enough by Marvel without firing the few real big names they have working for them!
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Good business is more than money. It's also, as JB pointed out, professionalism. I own a business and will often make decisions based on factors other than money. We take pride in what we do, and we profit from delivering good service, on time, consistently.
And they are fools. The amount of money they may or may not generate does not change that one bit.
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