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John Byrne
Robot Wrangler
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 11662
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 8:14am | IP Logged | 1
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You'd have to attach all kinds of qualifiers to that - for starters, 8 issues of The Ultimates by Millar/Hitch will bring in a lot more cash than 12 issues of Doom Patrol - and will continue to do so through the sales of collected editions for years to come (I don't read The Ultimates myself). ***** Stupid and pointless hair splitting -- and exactly the kind of nonsense that these assholes use to justifyl their excesses. 12 issues of ULTIMATES will make more money than 8. Simple math.
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Robert White Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2715
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 8:15am | IP Logged | 2
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Millar/Hitch's stuff does not exactly blow your mind looking at the
sales numbers. Does the top title even sell 100,000 anymore? They don't
produce 12 a year, and only 8, not because they are taking their time,
I would venture, it's because they don't have the work ethic of older
creators. What I don't get is how Marvel seems so set in their half ass
ways when they don't make nearly as much money on the comics as they
used to. Only stupidity would keep a company from not maximizing their
earnings potential. The quality is horrible, so the "growing roses"
crap is an insult. "Growing weeds" is more apt.
I think Millar, Bendis, JMS etc. are all poor substitutes for Byrne,
Miller, Simonson etc. anyway, so the fact that these inferior creators
(in my opinion) get all this slack for being lazy and unprofessional
irks me to no end. I think their careers have been as "padded" as the
boring fluff they produce.
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John Byrne
Robot Wrangler
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 11662
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 8:16am | IP Logged | 3
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It's a business. "Those fools" as you call im, are money in the bank - DC are getting stomped badly enough by Marvel without firing the few real big names they have working for them!***** More stupidity. This is exactly what Ayn Rand often goes on about, the "looters" -- her word -- who expect to be rewarded for not doing the job they have been hired to do. Tell me if you hired someone to build you a house you would be happy if he left off the back wall, as long as he did a good job on the rest of it.
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Aaron Leach Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 364
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 8:16am | IP Logged | 4
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John Byrne wrote:
| Yesterday's memorial service for Will Eisner was underwritten by DC Comics. Paul Levitz was present to host and play Master of Ceremonies. During the many speeches made on Eisner's behalf it was noted that, in a career spanning seventy years he had never missed a deadline. Not so much as once. In fact, he had declined high paying gigs if he felt he would not be able to deliver on time.
So, here is my "challenge": If DC really wants to create a memorial to Will Eisner, and not merely pay lip service to the man and his career, it is time to fire all the prima donnas who cannot get their work in on time. It is time to boot the arrogant asses who are "growing roses" and restore, as much as we can, the industry Will Eisner helped create.
That would be a suitable living memorial to the memory of such a great man. |
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This is why I feel your one of the greats in comic books JB. You produce great artwork, and stories, and you stand up for what is right. We could always protest the big two. Maybe that would get their attention.
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John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10000
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 8:19am | IP Logged | 5
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Steve Jones wrote:
Management has allowed a culture of
unprofessionalism to seep in to the industry. It's their job to put it right. I
have disagreed with JB in the past over the fan-turned-pro idea, but
maybe he is onto something if we take it a step further and say the
problem is caused by the fan-turned-manager/editor. |
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Extend that to the entirety of the industry, as I stated, and we're in
complete agreement. Too many fans, not enough professionals.
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17910
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 8:23am | IP Logged | 6
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Tell me if you hired someone to build you a house you would be happy if he left off the back wall, as long as he did a good job on the rest of it.
*****************
That's a pretty cool analogy, JB.
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Robert White Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2715
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 8:23am | IP Logged | 7
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I wonder if the ambivalence regarding lateness among the fanbase has to
do with the fact that the averge comic fan of today has more things to
do between months than they used to? All that time spent online
spoiling the storylines of comics and movies, trolling, downloading
illegal copyrighted material etc., might ease the pain of not getting
your Ultimate...whatever, fix every 30 days I guess.
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John McMahon Byrne Robotics Member
Membership Revoked
Joined: 21 September 2004 Location: Ireland Posts: 581
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 8:48am | IP Logged | 8
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John Byrne wrote:
| Stupid and pointless hair
splitting -- and exactly the kind of nonsense that these assholes use
to justifyl their excesses. 12 issues of ULTIMATES will make more money
than 8. Simple math. |
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Hardly - under your suggestion, Millar and Hitch would be fired and
replaced by AN Other and V. Timely - 12 issues by that creative team
would pull in less than 6 by the original.
Oh and I only picked The Ultimates because of the problems with the
first volume, I believe that Marvel decided to hold back publishing the
second till they had enough issues in the bag to guarantee 12 monthly
issues - so cheers and money all round then.
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John McMahon Byrne Robotics Member
Membership Revoked
Joined: 21 September 2004 Location: Ireland Posts: 581
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 8:50am | IP Logged | 9
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Robert White wrote:
| I wonder if the ambivalence regarding lateness among the fanbase has to
do with the fact that the averge comic fan of today has more things to
do between months than they used to? |
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I put it down to them (us) wanting more quality than quantity - they
don't have to be mutally exclusive of course, but if forced to chose,
well it's no choice really.
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John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10000
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 8:58am | IP Logged | 10
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The point, John, is that in the old days if either Millar or Hitch had been
late, the next issue would have been written or drawn by someone else
for that issue, allowing the "main team" of the book to catch up, thereby
not missing the deadline and ensuring that the book was published on
time so as not to lose sales.
It happened all the time. Anyone remember the original Trigon arc of the
original New Teen Titans was finished off by Curt Swan instead of George
Perez?
Edited by John Mietus on 08 April 2005 at 8:59am
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Mike McNeff Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 163
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 8:59am | IP Logged | 11
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John McMahon wrote:
| .... but if forced to chose.... |
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This is where that word "professional" comes into play. You shouldn't have to choose. A professional would be able to fulfill their obligations.
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James Stewart Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 15 October 2004 Location: Scotland Posts: 3127
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 9:01am | IP Logged | 12
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That's a great challenge JB but i can't see this happening. Maybe if other proffesionals backed you up it would help. I can just imagine the whole room going silent when you issued the challenge. It reminds me of a line from the Next Men "you could hear the sound of their asses clenching"
Good on you.
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John McMahon Byrne Robotics Member
Membership Revoked
Joined: 21 September 2004 Location: Ireland Posts: 581
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 9:01am | IP Logged | 13
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John Mietus wrote:
The point, John, is that in the old days if either Millar or Hitch had been
late, the next issue would have been written or drawn by someone else
for that issue |
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And my point is that a large cunk of the readers are buying the book to
read stories by a certain creative team - they don't want some fill-in
issue, we're not crack whores you know - not going to go into withdrawl
if the next issue doesn't hit within 31 days.
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17910
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 9:01am | IP Logged | 14
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Anyone remember the original Trigon arc of the original New Teen Titans was finished off by Curt Swan instead of George Perez?
*******************
Just read that last week. Swan's pencils blended really well with Tanghal's inks to produce artwork that was virtually seamless with Perez's.
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Dan Helpingstine Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 110
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 9:04am | IP Logged | 15
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there is no reason we as fans cannot demand quality AND quantity...we
get more for our money that way and Marvel or DC get more for their
money by way of sheer number of isuses sold and faster trade paperback
turn around...
heck, go back to the old days of fill-in issues and guest artists...it
will make the deadline scoffers look like they are the fill-ins rather
than the regular teams...at least i'll be assured of have the
adventures of my favorite super-hero monthly when i expect it!
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17910
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 9:05am | IP Logged | 16
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John McMahon wrote:
John Mietus wrote:
The point, John, is that in the old days if either Millar or Hitch had been late, the next issue would have been written or drawn by someone else for that issue |
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And my point is that a large cunk of the readers are buying the book to read stories by a certain creative team - they don't want some fill-in issue, we're not crack whores you know - not going to go into withdrawl if the next issue doesn't hit within 31 days.
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You're missing the point, John. It's not whether or not Millar/ Hitch can produce 12 issues a year. The point of being professional rests upon how many issues they commit to in that year and how many are delivered on time. No one is saying Hitch's art is bad. We are saying he has been unprofessional in providing it.
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Brian Talley Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5195
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 9:06am | IP Logged | 17
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JB's challenge is naturally a good thing. But wouldn't it also make re-working existing contracts necessary? I wonder how many of these "pros" would react when told that they would have to agree to terms that said they actually had to do their jobs properly or face some sort of sanction.
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John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10000
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 9:08am | IP Logged | 18
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Dan Helpingstine wrote:
there is no reason we as fans cannot demand
quality AND quantity...we get more for our money that way and Marvel or
DC get more for their money by way of sheer number of isuses sold and
faster trade paperback turn around...
heck, go back to the old days of fill-in issues and guest artists...it will
make the deadline scoffers look like they are the fill-ins rather than the
regular teams...at least i'll be assured of have the adventures of my
favorite super-hero monthly when i expect it! |
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Exactly the point I was making.
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John McMahon Byrne Robotics Member
Membership Revoked
Joined: 21 September 2004 Location: Ireland Posts: 581
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 9:09am | IP Logged | 19
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And I'm saying that the general audience doesn't care and continues to
support his work - that he 'gets away' with being late because he does
better numbers with 6 issues than most current artists do in 12!
Money talks in this situation, if it was a fiscal reality that a timely
artist would make more money for Marvel on The Ultimates than Hitch,
then Hitch would've been fired by now.
Money, money, money.
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Robert White Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2715
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 9:09am | IP Logged | 20
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Who the hell waits on pins and needles for Millar/Hitch? I just don't
get it. Yeah, I'm all for throwing a monkey wrench into the gears of
monthly publication system so we can get 7 or 8 issues of overrated,
padded, poorly drawn pinup art. I have to raise an eyebrow at your
assertion that some in the fanbase are not "crack whores."
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John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10000
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 9:14am | IP Logged | 21
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John McMahon wrote:
And I'm saying that the general audience
doesn't care and continues to
support his work - that he 'gets away' with being late because he does
better numbers with 6 issues than most current artists do in 12!
Money talks in this situation, if it was a fiscal reality that a timely
artist would make more money for Marvel on The Ultimates than Hitch,
then Hitch would've been fired by now.
Money, money, money.
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And I'm saying I think you're wrong. I think fill-in issues would continue
to drive sales, especially if they found someone who the fans enjoyed *as
much* and still delivered the goods on time.
You're putting too much emphasis on the artists. The majority of
readers ultimately care more about the stories and the characters than
the creators.
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10065
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 9:15am | IP Logged | 22
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John McMahon wrote:
Money talks in this situation, if it was a fiscal reality that a timely
artist would make more money for Marvel on The Ultimates than Hitch,
then Hitch would've been fired by now.
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Quesada can't fire Hitch for being late. His own Daredevil book late by three, four, five months?
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Robert White Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2715
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 9:16am | IP Logged | 23
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Do you not understand that the same "hot" artists would generate MORE
MONEY if they could get 12 issues out a year?! You put a lot of faith
in these guys being honest with their claims of "growing roses."
Do you really think that if these guys had JB's ethic, they couldn't
produce four more issues of the same "high quality" stuff? This is just
mass idiocy built on a foundation of denial.
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17910
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 9:18am | IP Logged | 24
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Quesada can't fire Hitch for being late. His own Daredevil book late by three, four, five months?
*******************
It's at least a year late, maybe more.
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10065
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| Posted: 08 April 2005 at 9:20am | IP Logged | 25
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Ultimates (or Planetary over at DC) is a bad example. How many books
sell Ultimates numbers? The vast majority of books are mid or low range
sellers. The lateness of those artists and writers, which is an
epidemic over at Marvel, forces those books to earn even less.
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