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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 20 November 2017 at 9:12am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Sometimes someone says it better than I ever could:


Thoughts?
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 20 November 2017 at 9:48am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

She established her authentic credentials with me immediately when she lists her location as Civic City, Earth-2.

Her points resound pretty well with me. It's hard to deal with such a radical sea change by transforming multiple universes into a single one. Especially when, thirty years later, the multiple universes concept is REintroduced - but NOT by resetting the original universes.

The eggs can't be unbroken. The call can't be tucked back into the trumpet. The Earth-2, Earth-4, and Earth-S characters were permanently fouled up when they had to be coordinated (jammed?) into the Earth-1 history. (Earth-3 was impossible, so those characters were just evil versions of the Justice League. If they used Bizarro, the Wrath, Sinestro, and Reverse-Flash, it could have worked.)

And I'll stick with my main Crisis mash-up point - what was the big deal about Superman? The JSA had been doing what he did 20 years earlier, and he had a lot of similar abilities to Dr. Fate. So... why all the fuss?

This is a good discussion - definitely worth the read.
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David Schmidt
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Posted: 20 November 2017 at 9:53am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I think she's absolutely right.
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Darren Ashmore
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Posted: 20 November 2017 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

From time to time I cogitate on Crisis on Infinite Earths and its after effects and a few observations come to mind:

As much I was a big fan of the series (especially the artwork), the ending was so ill conceived and haphazard one wonders how it passed through the editorial process at the time.  Marv Wolfman clearly had SO much influence on content at the time (having dragged DC into a half decent market position) that I can only assume any suggestion he made was eagerly accepted.  It seems to me that very little thought went into the consequences of the series and what would spin out of it.  

Equally frustrating was the level of participation by other DC creators at the time of Crisis.  Mike Barr seemed to totally ignore it, Roy Thomas, by all accounts, was lied to regards the ending and how it would affect the titles he oversaw.  When the dust settled and the reboots began it was not a consistent line wide change, again creators would pick and chose which parts they wanted to use or not.  The entire thing became a mish mash of ideas ranging from excellent to poor, the left hand very often unaware that the right hand even existed!

Now of course, as a consequence, long time comics fans lament the loss of the multiverse and long for its return (as does the writer of the articles Robbie links to) and to some degree I am amongst them. This raises an interesting point. As old time fans we long for a return to the comics as we knew them, but using Crisis as a time marker, the last time this was true was over 30 years ago!  As much as I dislike the notion, readers who first found comics in the nineties or noughties have as much right to say that their versions of the DC Universe are equally as valid, if not moreso.  So perhaps a return to the Multiverse of old would alienate as many readers now, as Crisis did back in 1986.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 20 November 2017 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

As old time fans we long for a return to the comics as we knew them, but using Crisis as a time marker, the last time this was true was over 30 years ago!  As much as I dislike the notion, readers who first found comics in the nineties or noughties have as much right to say that their versions of the DC Universe are equally as valid, if not moreso.  So perhaps a return to the Multiverse of old would alienate as many readers now, as Crisis did back in 1986.

***

I understand your point, Darren.

Case in point: "my" Dan Dare was the one I first came across, circa 1988. He was a space marshal, a Judge Dredd-like character with a big gun and a robot companion. Around 1989, those adventures stopped.

In 1989/90, I came across some reprints of the original Dan Dare. It was slightly jarring, definitely not the Dan Dare I came across.

A person born in the 30s/40s/50s would have grown up with the original Dan Dare - and "my" Dare would have been jarring to them, sacrilege perhaps. But I missed "my" Dare (to be fair, I grew to like the original Dan Dare, via reprints).
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Darren Ashmore
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Posted: 20 November 2017 at 10:42am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Glad you got what I was saying Robbie, wasn't sure my intent was clear!!

Your experience is a parallel, to me, of the reason the DC Multiverse came into existence in the first place.  In the sixties fans such as Jerry Bails and Roy Thomas, for want of a better word, badgered the DC editors to reintroduce the JSA and other Golden Age characters because that was the versions they remembered, and as a novelty DC did exactly that.  When those characters became more and more popular and prevalent, that is when the wheels began to fall off IMHO.  This wasn't helped by some writers and editors who either didn't understand the Multiversal concept or didn't care enough to keep it straight (thus we ended up with the notorious Bob Haney Brave and Bold stories, etc.)
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John Byrne
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Posted: 20 November 2017 at 10:49am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

She (?) makes the same mistake DC had been making since they published "The Flash of Two Worlds".

Don't get me wrong. I love that story. When I was 9, it utterly blew my tiny mind. But it was answering a question nobody was asking. At least, nobody who wasn't a hardcore fan and/or worked for DC. It introduced a really cool concept, parallel universes, but it used that concept in a way that complicated matters enormously --- and then went on making those matters more and more complex. And this was before there was really anything like organized fandom!

Len Wein used to say that the first story you'd do as a Fan should be the last story you'd do as a Pro. "The Flash of Two Worlds" was exactly such a story. What did it bring to the table? It allowed the middle aged guys who were by then in charge at DC to play with things of their youth. It further de-uniqued the Flash, and De-Uniquing is pathological at DC.

Sadly, the only way to "fix" comicbook universes is to not break them in the first place. Be ever vigilant. When somebody says "Wouldn't it be cool if...?" be sure to ask the next question: "Yeah, but then what?"

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Darren Ashmore
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Posted: 20 November 2017 at 10:55am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Just to pick up on the title of this thread if I may

How would I have ended Crisis?
1. There would have been no more interaction between Earths
2. I would've destroyed Earth 1 entirely.
3. Earth 2 would have survived (although devastated) and any titles would have become a separate line of titles.
4. Reintroduce the main DC line from scratch much as was done in in the 1950s with brand new versions of characters having no connection to their previous incarnations.

Funnily enough the biggest casualty to come out of a scenario like this would be The New Teen Titans, since so much of its backstory is dependent of other characters (Batman, Flash, Wonder Woman).
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Darren Ashmore
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Posted: 20 November 2017 at 11:03am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

JB, it's really one of the first examples of the fan turned pro mentality. Bails, Thomas, etc., reading comics way past the age they were intended for, and wanting the see the things that excited them as children AND managing to get the ear of the people who could make it happen.

The generation of writers and artist prior to that didn't give a damn about who and what character did what, it was a way of paying the bills.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 20 November 2017 at 11:51am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Just to pick up on the title of this thread if I may

How would I have ended Crisis?

•••

By not starting it?

As many here know, Dick Giordano originally offered me what evolved into CRISIS. Realizing, among other things, that the the whole concept was unworkable, I gave it a pass. If only others had, too!

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Darren Ashmore
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Posted: 20 November 2017 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

By not starting it?
..............
Good point JB.  In hindsight the best option all around.

Just out of curiosity and not to derail the topic, but was the series offered to you as a universe changer? Or just a big team up story ala Secret Wars
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John Byrne
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Posted: 20 November 2017 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

It was presented as a 12 part (or was it 13) maxi series which was to primarily take the form of a History of the DCU, using the final volume to blow everything up. Then in the next month "everything would start over with new first issues."
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