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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7465
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Posted: 11 January 2018 at 12:55pm | IP Logged | 1
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When Angel was introduced, along with the other X-Men, I don't think there were that many flying superheroes. I mean, let's see:
the Human Torch (thanks for the reminder, JB!!) Namor the Sub-Mariner Ant-Man, who rode a flying ant (not exactly under his own power) Thor, who flew by grabbing onto his hammer Wasp, who shrank down to use her wingsand... who am I missing?
Including the Hulk, who had the power to fly for one issue (another tip of the hat to the Chief!), that's... seven heroes. So clearly, early Marvel didn't have a lot of skybound characters.
But now...? Heck, lots of superfolks fly. Angel's big problem is that there's not very much that makes him special AS a flyer. His signature ability, constrained as it by needing wings to work, is upstaged by a raft of newer characters.
That's not to say he couldn't be made to work as a solo character, but if you start from the notion that he's lost what made him really different, there's some obstacles to deal with. And it's almost certainly why he's gone through so many drastic changes, from Archangel/Death to mind-wiped Angel to "wings of fire" Angel. Seems like even in the team books, they don't know what to do with him.
Edited by Andrew Bitner on 11 January 2018 at 2:37pm
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7465
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Posted: 11 January 2018 at 12:57pm | IP Logged | 2
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Oh, we might add Iron Man, who "flew" in the old days by means of magnetic levitation, but it wasn't exactly true flight. Nowadays the guy can zip around the world like a ballistic missile...
Let's see Angel keep up with that!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132132
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Posted: 11 January 2018 at 1:23pm | IP Logged | 3
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Human Torch?And the Hulk -- for one issue!
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Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4067
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Posted: 11 January 2018 at 2:12pm | IP Logged | 4
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Andrew F., I considered all the factors about Angel that you presented, and I just couldn't see stories that would be interesting enough to maintain a readership. Again... that's as he started (or, let's say, as of GSXM #1. Change him around, and sure - the whole (anti-)point of this post is about characters being interesting with modifications.
I don't think I suggested anything that changed the character, just a change in surroundings. When Gomer Pyle was spun off from the Andy Griffith show, they didn't keep him in Mayberry, but the character stayed the same. Wolverine's solo book moved him to Madripoor so that he wouldn't just be hanging out at the X-Mansion all the time, right?
As far as flight being his lone power, look to books like Hawkman and see what worked and what didn't. A one-on-one aerial battle with another "just flying" villain? A battle of wits against a heavily armed opponent like the Titanium Man? Angel's power tends to work best in a big group battle against a bunch of villains, one of whom also has the power of flight, so the trick is making a conflict like that interesting enough to be the centerpiece of an issue.
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Dave Phelps Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4176
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Posted: 12 January 2018 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | 5
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Robbie Parry wrote:
I would always defer to talented writers where possible. I just feel there are many opportunities for small characters. Almost every household item I can think of can be a death-trap for the likes of the Atom (toasters, vacuum cleaners). There's the pet cat, too. And a small communal garden like the one outside my apartment block is a "jungle" to the likes of the Atom. |
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But that's kind of the problem. All those examples are situations where your super-power just makes yourself a lot easier to kill. Doesn't play well into the "wish fulfillment" element of super-hero comics. :-)
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Dave Phelps Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4176
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Posted: 12 January 2018 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | 6
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Eric Sofer wrote:
Of the original X-Men, I've often considered which ones could or couldn't support a solo feature.
Two keep coming to mind that wouldn't make it without some substantial changes. I don't think that Angel or Professor X would be very good on their own. |
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This kind of goes back to my original comment - how long do they have to support a solo feature for it to "count"? They'd both be pretty offbeat, but various talented creators could probably put together a solid run of 25-50 issues for either of them that embrace who they are rather than work against it.
(Professor X is a little trickier given that his whole reason for being is to teach the X-Men, so it becomes a question of how much a change of context can be seen as "changing the character.")
One of the better DC Comics of the 90s was the Jack Knight Starman, who had an 81 issue series with a clear beginning, middle and end and hasn't been seen since. Pretty solid run there.
It's not like our only options are "able to support a solo book indefinitely" or "eh, don't bother."
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 13 January 2018 at 11:49am | IP Logged | 7
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But for the same of this discussion, it is "able to support a solo book" - except that I tried to specify "feature" and not "book." I mean, technically Captain America, Iron Man, and the Hulk didn't get a solo book for a while (or didn't have it for long.) But their features were as popular as water.
Look at Superman or Daredevil (for example), and try to determine what was changed to make them must-have books. While there were changes, I'm not sure I would call them "radical."
I was wondering who couldn't make it into that rarefied atmosphere unless changed so much that it might be hard to recognize them.
There is no question at all that any character can be made mega-popular... Messrs. Adams and Byrne are entirely correct.
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 13 January 2018 at 12:52pm | IP Logged | 8
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Dave Phelps wrote:
But that's kind of the problem. All those examples are situations where your super-power just makes yourself a lot easier to kill. Doesn't play well into the "wish fulfillment" element of super-hero comics. :-) |
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I understand your point.
To be honest, maybe shrinking better suits a non-superhero character. If I could shrink, I'd love to turn my bath into a "giant swimming pool". Maybe I could turn my wardrobe into a "mountain" to climb. It'd be good fun.
But I suppose there can be limited uses for it, although there are many uses, e.g. shrinking to break into a bad guy's lair, shrinking to enter the brain of a robot that is out of control, etc.
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2280
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Posted: 14 January 2018 at 5:30am | IP Logged | 9
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I'm guessing DC won't be bringing back ISIS any time soon.
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Wallace Sellars Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17659
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Posted: 14 January 2018 at 7:16am | IP Logged | 10
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I'd much rather read a good book featuring the original X-Men than any other incarnation of the team. The Beast is my favorite member of that early group, followed by an "unrefined" Iceman.
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 15 January 2018 at 6:31pm | IP Logged | 11
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Same here, Wallace. I'm trying to get my hands on as many early X-Men issues as I can (well, in a sense, via reprints).
I agree about an "unrefined" Iceman, too.
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 15 January 2018 at 11:02pm | IP Logged | 12
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Didn't a thinly veiled reimagining of Isis just appear on Legends of Tomorrow as Zari Adrianna Tomaz, a variation on the character's original name of Andrea Thomas? Erica Durance's Lois Lane was possessed by the spirit of Isis on a late season episode of Smallville as well.
The local Isis spiritual bookstore in my city which had been in operation for decades recently changed it's name to Goddess. That's really all that would be needed to bring the character back in the comics.
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