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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 3:31pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

What more can be said? 

Why do I post about this? Why do any of us? Perhaps it's cathartic, perhaps I hope my words will somehow, in the ether, help contribute towards change. 

Every time I hear about a shooting, I pray (not in a literal sense) that there'll be injuries, but not fatalities. American or not, I think the shooting of anyone in cold blood is awful. 

Fuck senators, the NRA, GOA and anyone else responsible.

No doubt the "If I had a gun and was passing..." brigade will be on social media tonight.

And I suspect the politicians will be out with their prayers soon. Fuck them, too.

How can they say they are pro-life? Yes,  you are, for 9 months when a child is in a womb; after that, not pro-life.

Okay, I want to make this topic useful: realistically (legally), is there anything, even the barest beginnings, that could be done to do something about gun violence? (And gun violence seems a redundant term because the only purpose of guns is violence, yes I realise that can be in self-defence, e.g. a sheriff protecting life).

I suppose the "Would we tell Ford to not produce cars because of drunk drivers?" advocates will be out on social media, too.

If deaths are to be never in vain, something surely must be done sooner or later.
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Why do you post about this? Why do any of us?

Well, because we care. And JB's forum (thankfully) is a place where we can share our feelings about current events in the world and how it effects us.

That said, this makes me angry... just as the other times did.

Most people will go with the whole "thoughts & prayers" response.That should help.* Our elected officials will move forward from this with no action.

-C!

*sarcasm


Edited by Charles Valderrama on 14 February 2018 at 4:34pm
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 4:07pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Yes, just watching a little about some of this on the news. I think basically people have chosen for the most part the freedom to have access to firearms, the ship has sailed long ago where the U.S. could become another sort of country. It does seem though, and I have known some NRA members, that those in charge will have to heed something of what Ronald Reagan wrote once about military style weapons being out among the general civilian populace. The bump stock, the large magazine clips, the things to take a semi-auto to fully, Brady bill reinstalled/better psych background checks. I can't see what the delay is, but I absolutely know that human beings kill human beings, always have always will.

I'm honestly neither 'left' nor 'right'. One grandfather was a hunter, another was a sniper in WWII. We were brought up to respect and know how dangerous guns can be, that they are offensive rather than defensive devices, that rural people genuinely need a rifle or two around.

There's really nothing left to say but maybe people listening to each other where they haven't before? I have family and friends in the U.S. and I don't think I am any less safe there even unarmed because most people are decent with lives and loved ones they care about too. This isn't to say "the only thing you have to fear is fear itself" but there is some truth to that.

As always, hoping for the least damage knowing there absolutely has been some damage done. As for religion, I'm a committed Pastafarian these days. I choose to believe on faith that the flying spaghetti monster loves all his little meatballs, and am comforted by wearing the sacred colander. Seriously; God (ineffable father spirit?) probably has nothing to do with these things, unless it was creating something with free will in the first place. The Robin Hood type dude in the baby blankets never existed, sorry, he would've looked like Klinger in M-a-s-h, and having been addressed as Rabbi according to the oldest surviving bits, could've been married (horrors). It's nice to remember he is in the Qur-an too. He said some things a number of people felt should be remembered, and I value some of those things as still challenging.

Hope I did okay. I wish people in Florida and the U.S. only well!
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Doug Centers
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I'm sick to my stomach.

Lives that will never reach their potential.

12 school shootings thus far in 2018. Stop the madness!!!!!
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James Johnson
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 6:05pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

When these school shootings happened in the inner-cities, we knew that lawmakers and the NRA did not give a damn.

When the shooting occurred at the elementary school in Sandy Hook back in Dec 2012, the lawmakers and the NRA showed us they did not give a fuck.

The Las Vegas mass shooting October of last year, where most of the folks who attended the country festival, fit the NRA demographics. Nothing positive came about changing gun laws. 

Hell, even a congressman was shot last year while playing softball.

Does anyone really believe any REAL changes will come about with our gun laws?
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 6:18pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

 James Johnson wrote:
we knew that lawmakers and the NRA did not give a damn.


It would be more accurate to say that a majority of the American people do not give a damn.  At least, not enough to vote for people who would make common sense changes to the law.  Those who care and are willing to do something about it are sadly outnumbered.  Blaming Congress sidesteps the real issue.  Congress does nothing because the voters allow them to do nothing.


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 14 February 2018 at 6:21pm
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Nothing will change, due to the gun lobby. The NRA are nothing but a bunch of jerks who care more about people being armed - even if it is just for recreational purposes - than innocent lives. 

I know a few NRA members (some who are actually police) who see nothing wrong with current gun laws. 

Lets not forget that the NRA wants bumpstock devices regulated, not done away with, and silencers legalized. Can you imagine the chaos if some maniac has weapons with both of those attached?!


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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 6:35pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

If this happened at an elite school or university, the gun problem would be solved the day after. Politicians of both parties would be falling over each other in a rush to ban guns and protect their own children and of their wealthy donors. I'm not wishing this on anyone, but that's just how our world works. 

Edited by Joe Zhang on 14 February 2018 at 6:37pm
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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 6:41pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

My niece is a student at this high school, but she was one of the students that evacuated to the nearby Walmart.

Florida is a gun-tolerant state, so I wonder what the spin is going to be about why gun-toting civilians/teachers didn't put a stop to this quicker.

I am grateful that the state has the death penalty, at least.
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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 6:45pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Drastic change is also needed in how this country deals with the mentally ill. "Ignoring them until they shoot somebody" doesn't work. 
More places to put these 'assholes of creation' away would dramatically reduce the pool of customers buying these guns that should never have been available to the idiots in the first place.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 7:16pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

 Joe Zhang wrote:
If this happened at an elite school or university, the gun problem would be solved the day after. Politicians of both parties would be falling over each other in a rush to ban guns and protect their own children and of their wealthy donors.


I do not think you are correct about this.   The gun lobby does not care who is killed, because they take their orders from the gun manufacturing industry.  Congress does not care either, as long as the gun lobby gives them sizable donations and the voters do not hold them accountable.  There could be a mass shooting at an NRA meeting, or within the halls of Congress itself, and it would not make a difference.  The only thing that could change the situation is if a majority of voters start making opposition to gun regulation a major factor upon which they are willing to base their votes.  That seems unlikely.


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 14 February 2018 at 7:49pm
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 7:18pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

 Brian O'Neill wrote:
Drastic change is also needed in how this country deals with the mentally ill. "Ignoring them until they shoot somebody" doesn't work.

The problem is that such changes require money, and the people who oppose gun regulation also tend to be the people who oppose paying for new social service programs and who support bankrupting the government with drastic tax reductions for the wealthy.


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 14 February 2018 at 7:50pm
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James Johnson
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 7:51pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

and the people who oppose gun regulation also tend to be the people who oppose paying for new social service programs and who support bankrupting the government with lower taxes.
==================================

......and when a natural disaster happens, those same folks are bitching when the government can't help them fast enough. .....
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Steven Myers
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 9:54pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Sent  an e-mail to my senators today. We cannot stop talking about better gun laws. We should not be quiet.
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 10:00pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Someone on Twitter is responding to thoughts and prayers posts from senators by posting how much money they've received from the gun lobby.


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Brian Hague
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 12:54am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

That is something that may bring about change. It will push Congress to eliminate the transparency that forces them to publish such data.

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Matt Reed
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 4:22am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

This.  THIS.   It gets my blood boiling and my head heated.  The callous disregard we have for human life is shameful and it's bolstered by a gun culture that makes it far too easy to obtain weapons of mass destruction.  Guns that never should be in the hands of anyone but the military.

Sadly, this too will pass in a couple of weeks. It will essentially be nothing in the great cosmos of nothingness.  That's how we react to mass shooting events now. A two week news cycle and then...nothing. No change.  No examination.  Nothing.  

Move on.  Nothing to see here.
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Marcio Ferreira
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 4:24am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

I want to understand what kind of mental process causes people to believe that criminals will comply with laws. The shooter chose a gun-free location, precisely because he knew that law-abiding people would not be armed and could not retaliate. Was the weapon he used legally acquired? Sounds unlikely to me. Everywhere weapons can be purchased illegally. The prohibition that so many here believe to be the stone of salvation will only serve for honest and law-abiding people to lose the right to defend themselves. Also, I do not see a word about the school-run epidemic in the United States, people can not believe that it's just weapons. There is something very wrong in the way these attacks are treated by the media, the glamorization and publicity given to criminals cater to the desire of their degenerate and narcissistic minds.it seems to me obvious that the call to finally be recognized across the globe, to leave the obscurity and to be the subject spoken by everyone, to have every detail of life minutely analyzed for audiences around the world is a great call to these psychopaths.
Before any investigation that can tell the real motivation of this attack (could be a terrorist attack) and the origin of the weapon used, people should not pursue a simplistic solution. Once people thought that it would be a solution for these crimes to simply forbid guns in these areas and it is clear that it does not work.
And before someone try to label me as a "gun fetishist", I do not have guns and I do not think I'm prepared to have guns, but I do not think that it is correct that honest people should be deprived of having the right to defend themselves just because I do not like guns (or what criminals do with them).

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 5:00am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

The usual social media comments irked me. I saw something once about how a guy could get hold of grenades. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am sure getting hold of grenades would be a lot harder.

Someone mentioned that the Las Vegas shooter could have had knives. If he'd thrown a knife from a building, it MAY have missed EVERYONE. Tragic though it would have been, I am sure the knife, if it had killed anyone, would have been in one person. Still a loss, of course, but not the same amount of damage.

You know something, why is debate banned? Why can't politicians have a DEBATE about gun control? What are the NRA and GOA scared of? Have the debate. Debate never hurt anyone. 

I'd be tempted, if I was a politician over there, to say, "NRA and GOA, the ball is in your court. Speak to me. Offer a solution." Put them on the spot. Quite frankly, and it reached this stage years ago, prayers and thoughts are insulting. God is NOT real. If he was, then perhaps some of that magic he used to part the sea for Moses could have been used to disable/incapacitate the shooter. And I am NOT being facetious about that. Shooting are no joke. But the Bible talks about people being turned into pillars of salt, the sea being parted and the sun standing still in Joshua's day. If those ***STORIES*** were true, then why the hell would G*d not be doing something today? Sorry, I'm angry. Why wouldn't he? 

I've heard some Christians in awe of supposed events such as the sea being parted and a person being turned into a pillar of salt. If I were a Christian, I'd be asking G*d, "Why couldn't you, as an omnipotent being, incapacitate that shooter?"

So fuck prayers and thoughts. If I'd lost anyone in a shooting over there, I would, as a person who isn't easily offended, be very offended with a politician offering thoughts and prayers.
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 5:39am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Ah yes, the criminals don't follow the law argument. I suppose all of the countries with strict gun laws are hiding the fact that criminals are abusing the laws? If you create an environment that is dark and damp then mold will grow. If you create an environment with readily available guns and fear then shootings occur. The government and lobbies protect the manufacturers and sellers of guns. They do next to nothing to protect the victims or potential victims. Marcio, your view that less available guns and more restriction will be ineffective is the minority here. If these simplistic solutions are doomed to fail then please propose your solution to reducing gun violence.

Edited by Eric Ladd on 15 February 2018 at 5:39am
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 8:28am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

I want to understand what kind of mental process causes people to believe that criminals will comply with laws.
--------------------------------
While we're at it, why not make drink driving legal? Only sober people are going to comply. Drunk people already have impaired judgement, right?
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 8:36am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

I must have missed the part in this thread where ANYONE stated that criminals would comply with laws.

They don't. They wouldn't. That's the definition of a criminal, whether it's a shooter or someone stealing a jumper. CRIMINALS BREAK LAWS, Marco.

But does that mean we shouldn't act. The UK tightened up gun laws after the school shooting in Dunblane, Scotland. 

I notice some (not here) are bringing up the whole knife thing. Let me post what I've posted a million times before: I know judo. There are no guarantees, but if a knifeman enters a shopping mall around here, I have at least a 60-70% chance (based on my skills) to disarm him. Like I said, NO guarantees, but I have a chance.

I have almost a 0% chance if it's a guy who starts firing. And 0% if it's one of those guns (I don't know the terminology) which are more powerful than pistols. 

What roll of the dice would you prefer, Marco? Would you want me to use my judo skills to disarm a knifeman? Or a shooter?
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

You know something, why is debate banned? Why can't politicians have a DEBATE about gun control? What are the NRA and GOA scared of? Have the debate. Debate never hurt anyone.

*******

They're scared to have an honest debate... and if they DID, those participating would probably miss some key points - which we've mentioned here already and in the past. (I've cringed at the town halls
that have been aired tackling other important issues.)

Bottom line: Guns are too profitable to be regulated anymore than they are now. Plus, few politicians care about mental health funding... heck, major government funding goes to our military!

-C!
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Was the weapon he used legally acquired? Sounds unlikely to me.
-------------------------------------------------


and 




Edited by Peter Martin on 15 February 2018 at 10:41am
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 10:51am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

I must remain off social media for the day. People are mentioning butter knives and screwdrivers.

They can't be that dense. A lobotomized amoeba couldn't be that dense. 

A screwdriver? Come on! If a guy with a screwdriver enters a cinema, pub or school, I definitely think that, if things turn out right, there's a 100% chance of zero fatalities. Injuries? Yes. Or not. Trust me, if the right person notices - never a guarantee, of course - that person with the screwdriver can be disarmed, especially those, like myself, who are trained in something (I say that not to boast, just to show that there are techniques).

But the gun will, and always seems to, result in not only injuries, but fatalities.

There has to be a compromise. If they can't ban the sale of guns, then at least only allow pistols or something. I know not the terminology of other guns, but surely assault rifles/machine guns/similar weaponry should only be used in a military context?

Does that mean criminals won't get hold of them? No. And hopefully anti-gun units in law enforcement can deal with that, but the "only bad guys will have guns" argument long ago irked me. I mean, what reason can people have to be buying hi-tech weaponry?

Pistols? Maybe, just maybe for protection (in a dangerous area), although I am not so sure of that. But machine guns and assault rifles? No. I don't see a legitimate reason to own such things. If you're concerned about burglars, then your pistol, if you can get to it, should be effective. But who knows? A burglar won't wait for you to get it from your gun safe.

I get angry when I hear politicians, in addition to offering thoughts and prayers, talking about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Bullshit. And their pro-life bullshit. It's virtue signalling, to be honest (they are modern-day Pharisees, some of them). If they really cared, they'd at least have a debate about this issue. 
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