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Marcio Ferreira
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Joined: 20 September 2008
Location: Brazil
Posts: 2518
Posted: 15 February 2018 at 1:56pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

The obvious, simple answer is that making something illegal makes it more difficult to do, and deters some people from doing it because of fear of consequences. 
+++
Tell me again how the "gun free zones" have worked for protecting people so far.
Your logic is flawed, I am not suggesting that laws are useless, I am simply skeptic that gun control laws as some people expect them to be are going to make things better and not worse. I saw recent statistics that in USA burglary is more likely to occur when owners are not home (and cannot fight back with guns) while in UK robbers tend to intrude when people are still inside the house because they know that they cannot respond with force. Gun control is a simplistic and bad solution that doesn't work in a large scale, specially not in a country with large borders as USA. It doesn't work for drugs, it won't work for guns, criminals will continue to use illegal guns, the only result is that law abiding citizens (willing to use guns for protection) will not be unable to protect themselves.


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Robbie Parry
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Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
Posted: 15 February 2018 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

 Marcio Ferreira wrote:
while in UK robbers tend to intrude when people are still inside the house because they know that they cannot respond with force.

***

Evidence? A statement like that demands evidence, Marco. 

Because, quite frankly, 'tend to' sounds akin to "My uncle's roommate told me and I think it's true..."

No, I can't accept that without evidence, not unless you've spoken to a lot of UK burglars. Sorry, but that doesn't convince me at all. Burglars are probably likely to enter premises at night as it's quieter, but I don't support what you say.


Edited by Robbie Parry on 15 February 2018 at 2:10pm
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Charles Valderrama
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4716
Posted: 15 February 2018 at 2:23pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

"It doesn't work for drugs, it won't work for guns, criminals will continue to use illegal guns.."  BECAUSE our government won't properly fund LAW ENFORCEMENT and MENTAL HEALTH (Let's remember - last February Trump signed a measure nixing a regulation aimed at keeping guns out of the hands of some severely mentally ill people.) like they love to fund our military.

Sounds crazy, but the we should do whatever's necessary to protect our fellow man, woman and especially the children.

-C!


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Eric Ladd
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Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4506
Posted: 15 February 2018 at 2:28pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Marcio, I don't think any of your opposition thinks sufficient efforts have been made by government. Gun free zones do not work and I am not going to attempt to say they do work. I want restrictive gun ownership laws with extensive certification, background checks and mental evaluations. I want extremely onerous procedures around maintaining certification and limits for the number of guns in a domestic location. NOBODY is arguing that the current situation is working just fine. Make some effing sense, man.
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Peter Martin
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Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 2:50pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

This is from a study published in the American Journal of Medicine a few years ago:


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Leigh DJ Hunt
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Joined: 20 February 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1570
Posted: 15 February 2018 at 2:54pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Robbie, he will have no evidence because there is none. In the UK, we are very safe from any sort of violent crime. In America, well it's completely different. And to be honest, clearly not enough people there care that there have been 19 school shootings THIS YEAR. It's utterly unbelievable to those of us in countries where guns are not fetishised and worshipped and loved. Too many crazy people in the US and I'm not referring to those with mental issues or the terrorists that use the lax gun laws to do whatever they wish.
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Robbie Parry
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Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 3:00pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Regarding fetishisation, I do sigh when I see pictures of American kids unwrapping GUNS on Xmas Day. Jesus! I unwrapped a BMX or Amstrad when I was a kid.

Violent crime is rare here. Our police aren't routinely armed. Sure, every force here has an armed response unit (equivalent to US SWAT teams). And there are some cops here who are routinely armed: airport cops, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary (who guard civilian nuclear power stations), the Ministry of Defence Police (who guard defence property), etc. But even our military police don't routinely carry arms whilst working in the UK. A Royal Air Force policewoman here once stated she rarely carried arms in the UK.

So when violent gun crime occurs here, it is very rare. It's still tragic, but rare.

As for Marcio, I don't believe there's evidence. Not unless he's interviewed every burglar or spoken to UK police chiefs. I am sure a lot of burglars are probably opportunists who will enter in daylight or night (probably more likely at night), but I doubt they factor in a lack of guns here. 


Edited by Robbie Parry on 15 February 2018 at 3:03pm
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Eric Ladd
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Location: Canada
Posts: 4506
Posted: 15 February 2018 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

In the movie "Paycheck", the idea of knowing the future is explored. To which end, if people know there will be a stock market crash they all start pulling their money out of the marked CAUSING a crash. If people know there will be an epidemic they flock to hospitals and the concentration of people CAUSES an epidemic. I marvel when people think protecting themselves from guns requires that you own a gun. This self fulfilling prophecy has entirely too much evidence supporting a correlation between the number of guns available to a population and deaths from guns. But of course gun sales will spike horribly for the next day or so.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4545
Posted: 15 February 2018 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

 Marcio Ferreira wrote:
Tell me again how the "gun free zones" have worked for protecting people so far.

That is a straw man argument.  I am not talking about nor advocating for more gun free zones.  I am advocating the illegalization of semi-automatic weapons.  Making something illegal makes it more difficult to obtain.  If something is more difficult to obtain, less people will have it, and less people will use it.  That is a simple and obvious fact.


 QUOTE:
I saw recent statistics that in USA burglary is more likely to occur when owners are not home (and cannot fight back with guns) while in UK robbers tend to intrude when people are still inside the house because they know that they cannot respond with force.

Even if this is true (though you cited no source to prove it) I am not advocating the illegalization of all guns, just semi-automatic weapons that can kill dozens in seconds without need for skill or aiming.  I presume most homeowners are defending their homes with simple handguns.


 QUOTE:
Gun control is a simplistic and bad solution that doesn't work in a large scale, specially not in a country with large borders as USA.

Stating your opinion as fact, absent any evidence, does not make it fact.


 QUOTE:
It doesn't work for drugs, it won't work for guns, criminals will continue to use illegal guns, the only result is that law abiding citizens (willing to use guns for protection) will not be unable to protect themselves.

The current drug laws are hardly an ideal solution by themselves, but they most definitely "work" to some degree.  If methamphetamines were legal, there would be much more meth available and many more meth users.  If semi-automatic weapons were illegal, it would be more difficult to obtain them, so less criminals would have them.  Certainly some criminals would still obtain them, but there would be less.  Since I do not see a compelling reason why any private citizen needs to own such a weapon, even a small reduction in the use of such guns in crimes/murders would be worth it.


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 15 February 2018 at 7:17pm
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 3:58pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

And another question for you, Marcio:  do you think the US should legalize all drugs, and place no restrictions whatsoever upon their sales and use?  If not, why not?  You've stated that drug laws do not work, and that making something illegal does not prevent criminals from doing it.
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Dale Lerette
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Joined: 24 March 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 750
Posted: 15 February 2018 at 4:03pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

A wall didn't keep terrorism out of Florida.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4407
Posted: 15 February 2018 at 4:16pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I think the train left the station a long time ago in terms of control in the U.S. I'm semi-cynically resigned just based on the sheer numbers of military type assault weapons 'out there' with weakened screening (what's on the books not even being applied sometimes, or because of exemptions).

New info on the shooter says his Mom died of the flu this past November, his father died further back, and he's had mental health problems his whole life. A death pentaly now isn't going to bring anyone back, but could be justified on the grounds of A) the families of victims and survivors never have to worry about this particular individual getting out somehow, no matter how unlikely, to cause harm, also won't have to feel they must attend some parole hearing or whatnot, B) saves money.


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 15 February 2018 at 4:17pm
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