Matt, we rarely pay much attention to the guy in the number-two slot during presidential elections, and we don't really know anything about Logan except that he seems to fold under pressure-- not necessarily something that would come out during an election but still...

For real life examples, I doubt Spiro Agnew inspired much enthusiasm as Nixon's VP, though I could be wrong.

Agnew was effective because he allowed Nixon to be the new Nixon while Agnew could be the attack dog (as Nixon had been for the calm above it all war hero Ike)

He was pretty popular in the South-which is where Nixon, the Californian, needed him to be, as he railed against the intellectuals.

Best Spiro Agnew quote

"Every time I criticize what I consider to be excesses or faults in the news business, I am accused of repression, and the leaders of various media professional groups wave the First Amendment as they denounce me. That happens to be my amendment, too. It guarantees my free speech as it does their freedom of the press… There is room for all of us – and for our divergent views – under the First Amendment."

quotes with weird words

A spirit of national masochism prevails, encouraged by an effete corps of impudent snobs who characterize themselves as intellectuals. Spiro T Agnew

Ultraliberalism today translates into a whimpering isolationism in foreign policy, a mulish obstructionism in domestic policy, and a pusillanimous pussyfooting on the critical issue of law and order. Spiro T Agnew

Yippies, Hippies, Yahoos, Black Panthers, lions and tigers alike - I would swap the whole damn zoo for the kind of young Americans I saw in Vietnam. Spiro T Agnew

on second thought quote

 have often been accused of putting my foot in my mouth, but I will never put my hand in your pockets. Spiro T Agnew

maybe not, but you did take bribes Spiro.

Corey said: That's right, I'm suggesting that the villain for "Day #5" be Zell Miller!

Now that's funny!

During the first VP debate, Logan would have been covered in sweat and unable to adequately defend any position because of the spotlight he was under.  Seriously, there's no one in recent memory that I can think of that would even come close to the ineptitude he's shown at being a politician and leader.  The closest for me would have to be Dan Quayle and even he appeared to have the qualities that Logan is lacking.

Next season starts with the Chinese pulling Jack out of the hole they've kept him in since he was tried and convicted of war crimes, putting him in the Chinese CTU with Chinese versions of Edgar, Chloe, and Tony running the op.  He has 24 hours to do whatever he is uniquely qualified to do and he'll get his freedom if successful.  But a smoking hot Chinese agent has been assigned to help him and then take him out and make it look like he was killed in action so the Chinese get the best of both worlds.  Jack manages to get a message to a covert CTU/CIA agent in China and they plan to extract him at the end of his mission............much fun ensues.  I'd watch it.

WO

I've been thinking about Logan and how he got into power in the first place.  I am left with only one logical assumption:  Mike Novick.

Novick is a souless SOB and ultra-powerful kingmaker.   The fiasco that ended the Palmer presidency meant that Novick needed to find someone who would be easier to control.  Thus, Novick hooks up with Logan.  In addition, the POTUS gets Novick on his team in the background.  And further, Logan could be what Quayle was to Bush '41:  assassination insurance.

I thought that this series hit its high (and most silly) point some time back when Jack Bauer survived a nuclear explosion, but believe it or not, this show gets more and more tense and surprising – while staying somewhat credible.  The writers manage this by throwing Jack into a wide variety of situations of physical, emotional and moral crisis. 

Last night’s episode featured Jack having to extricate a terrorist’s accomplice from a rather sticky place.  Although my suspenders of disbelief were twisted just a little, the situation was compounded by moral and emotional choices that Jack was forced to make.  Yes, it’s ridiculous to think that Jack could do the physical stuff in this episode.  (Like in a previous season where he was killed and brought back to life.)

But by putting him in the moral and emotional quandries while keeping him at the edge of physical danger  the writers keep the audience squarely in Jack’s corner.  It's the combination of visceral and cerebral action, along with the emotional punch that makes this show so engrossing. 

Another incredible aspect of this show is the camera work. Editors keep things moving along so quickly that each moment feels like a race through a minefield.

I love this show, but they keep pushing Jack further and further past all boundries of good and evil.  He's doing the wrong things, many times, even if they are for the right reasons.

That has to catch up with him sometime.  Because I like to believe that at his core, Jack Bauer is a good guy.

Mike Sawin wrote: I love this show, but they keep pushing Jack further and further past all boundries of good and evil.  He's doing the wrong things, many times, even if they are for the right reasons.

I don't see Jack doing the wrong things at all.  I see him making tough decisions, but every single decision is the right one ladened with heavy consequences. It's always for the good of the United States, but rarely for the good of his personal life or his soul.

Matt...

Under most circumstances, would it be okay for someone to use torture on another human being?  (Say, using an electric cord to shock Paul when Paul had committed no crime and had but a tenuous link to the terrorists?)

To threaten others with extreme violence?

To kill others?  To lie?  To break the law?

Frankly, I think these things are b a d, and therefore w r o n g.  I understand that "good" may ultimately come from Jack's actions. 

I'm not saying Jack is a bad guy.  I'm saying that all of his choices have got to weigh on him someday.  In fact, it is my belief that at his core he's a decent human being that leads me to think that he must have some internal conflict. 

If Jack was just a scummy villain who just happened to be working for the good guys, this show wouldn't work for me at all.  The conceit of the show is that we see the extemity of Jack's behavior and little (if any) of the repercussions he suffers inside.  I believe that Jack Bauer pays a price every time he makes one of these choices.

The writer in me would like to see more of that conflict.  That's all.  

You're god damn right torture is acceptable if it's the difference between a nuclear bomb going off.

Incidentally, I haven't watched the episode yet (finals this week), and you bastards have ruined it for me. (I kid, I kid....)

We see that conflict all the time, Mike, in just about every episode.  We saw it at the end of Season 3.  We saw it last night with his decision to forcibly remove the surgeon from one patient to another at the cost of his relationship and the death of another.  We see it when Jack looks into Tony's eyes and knows what he gave up in order to be where he is.  We saw it with the deaths of so many of those around him.  I hardly think you can argue that, within a 24 hour span, we haven't seen that conflict. 

That said, I do think Jack makes the right decisions.  In the circumstances in which he is presented, he has to act and act quickly.  He can't wait for traditional methods, or else the terrorists from every season win and that comes at the expense of thousands if not millions of lives.  I don't think that the instances in which Jack has used torture have been wrong at all, nor have they been bad.  He's doing his job.  No matter how unfavorable or disgusting you may find it, he's saving millions of lives at the expense of one person's pain...usually one person who is a part of destructive, terrorist acts against the US.  I, for one, would be proud if there was a real-life Jack Bauer at a real-life CTU protecting me, my family and my country. 

Jason:

So are you saying that there are circumstances under which you would torture another human being?  If that's the case, would it bother you to do so?  Why?

If Jack Bauer is even remotely like me, (and I would hope that we have some similarities) some of the choices he makes -- whether or not they result in 'good' for the USA -- would affect him in some way.  Sutherland does a good job of giving us some of those moments, but I would like to see more.

My point is that Bauer is a decent guy, and he frequently finds himself in indecent situations.  Wouldn't it be interesting to see some of that internal conflict?

edited to fix a stupid typo

Andrew Bitner wrote: That's all well and good about Agnew, but I was really thinking that not as many people would be wild about him as president, compared with their endorsement of Nixon. The number two guy (until recently) hasn't gotten much press or held much real power. And I repeat that we have very little idea what kind of candidate Logan was. Who knows? Maybe he came off great in the campaign but is one of those guys with little tolerance for crisis.

I had had a couple of extra moments and felt like doing some research.

The truth is you're pretty much right-the VP has a nominal impact on a person'a choice for President, outside perhaps the VP's state, normally.

As Matt stated above, I think you DO see that conflict. Honestly, I'm suprised that you don't see it, and it even carries over from season to season (I'm thinking of the 'shaving the beard off ' sequence that started season 2, but I'm sure there are others).

This show wouldn't have it's staying power if it was an Ennis Punisher rip-off. Bauer is affected by the choices he makes.

Then you'd have a different show, Mike.  There's no time for navel gazing when everything happens over the span of 24 hours.  In real life, that's hardly enough time to process everything let alone spend some down time mired in self-examination and self-recrimination.  Jack would be paralyzed if, after every violent or questionable act, he took a moment to think about his actions and how they affected him personally.  That's why there is such a gap between seasons, meaning it's usually a year wherein Jack deals with everything that he's done...but that's why it happens off-camera because that's not the thrust of this show.  Again, though, I'd contend that we see the repercussions of his actions and how it affects him in just about every episode.  That's why we have those calm moments with characters like his wife, his daughter, his girlfriend and moments in the car on the phone or talking with Tony.

I think he is affectedm but most of the time only to a minimal degree. I don't think he is affected when he tortures a bad guy. only when he tortures someone like Paul, not bad but for a minute looked shady.

I don't blame Audrey one bit-it would be difficult to eb with someone like Jack. To see someone willing to do what he has to do-not that he doesn't have to do it (mostly).

So I guess the question for me is whether or not Jack Bauer has a threshold he wouldn't cross.  In a previous season, Bauer convinced a terrorist that he killed a  family member to get information from him.  Would he outright kill someone to get needed information from a terrorist? 

Where does Bauer draw the line?  Is everything he does justifiable?  Does he always make the right choice?  Maybe I missed a crucial scene where Jack discovers that he tortured Paul unnecessarily and has a serious question about his motives.  Is it a mere coincidence that Paul is Audrey's husband and Jack just might have had an agenda -- at least on some level?  I'm not saying that Jack was angry at Paul or anything like that, but a principled man like Jack would find life a lot easier if he was sleeping with the wife of a man who just happened to be a villain.

And then there's the accountability factor.  Even Jim West and Artemus Gordon were accountable to the President but after last week's events, POTUS Logan (one of the most powerful people in the world) has no real authority over Jack Bauer.  Doesn't that bother anyone else, even a little?

At what point does Bauer become a problem?  At what point does Bauer's inner struggle become a problem?

Asking these questions does not diminish my enjoyment of this show; it heightens it.  And I'm sorry Matt, but just accepting things because they are in the script is not in my nature.  It's not enough for me to say that Jack is terrorizing and killing people but it's okay because they are bad people and it's in the interest of national security.  There is a personal price this man pays for his choices, and I'm interested in that part of the story.

And it is not navel-gazing for a character to have some questions about his own actions and how far he'll go to follow orders. Or it doesn't have to be, in the hands of the right writer.  I'm all for action and this show really delivers the goods.  But I'm also for thoughtful action, and I think this show could do better in that area. 

I disagree, Mike.  As I keep mentioning, although I understand what you're saying, what you describe is not the thrust of this show.  It can't be.  Not when all these events take place in 24 hours.  If it was a standard procedural drama, then you'd have a point, but there's just not the time for the kind of navel gazing you're asking for.  If there was, it would stretch credibility for me more than some of the action does for you. 

Jack is excellent at compartmentalization.  He has to be.  If he wasn't, he couldn't do his job.  I'd venture to say this is true of real life FBI, CIA and black ops agents the US currently employs.  It's also true of the police and firefighters I know.  Over a 24 hour mission, I'd venture to say that none of them to a man would sit and consider the possible repercussions their actions will have on them personally.  They act and compartmentalize what disturbs them to deal with later.  Again, the show has shown Jack deal with it and examine his role in the events of the four seasons we've seen so far. His wife has died because of his job.  His daughter was estranged from him for a time and her boyfriend lost his hand because of his job.  He had to kill the head of CTU in order to comply with a terrorists demands and the repercussions of that action were evident at the end of last season.  He's become addicted to heroine, partly because of his job and in part because it was an escape.  He allowed another head of CTU to pilot a plane knowing that the detonation of which would kill him.  His pained expression just last night was better than a thousand words or a navel gazing, talky scene telling us how he was feeling because the repercussions were painfully evident.  There's no way he could have brought his patient in with a crash cart and then debate whether or not he should pull the surgeon off of Audrey's husband.  There was simply no time, but we did see how his actions broke him down.  To say that the show hasn't show us the repercussions of his actions, or not that it's not doing it enough, is to not understand that there's simply no room for it.  To me, it would also ring incredibly false knowing that in real life there's no room for that kind of thing when the lives of millions are at stake.

Without spoiling anything further...I don't think Jack had a choice at all in regards to the choice regarding Paul in last night's episode.  I think he was torn between duty and personal loyalty (to both Paul and Audrey) but at least he tried to be both friend and soldier.

As far as stretching credibility...well, do we have to go there?  What operating room has only one surgeon and nurse?  Where were all the other doctors in the CTU clinic that were around earlier in the season when the director's kid killed herself?  Why did they send only two agents with Chloe to retrieve that computer?  How is it that everything in the LA area is ten-to-fifteen minutes away from CTU?  How can a man who has never been in a building before outrun military guys who know the building while carrying someone on his shoulder?  Why aren't there more CTU agents running around?  Why did Jack listen to the Secret Service guys?  If he's right all the time, shouldn't Jack have just killed them and nabbed Marwan?  How in the world did Chloe and Edgar get as far in thier jobs when its obvious that they have no people skills?  Can someone get killed, be resuscitated and then go on to do all that Jack was able to do in years past?   

I love this show, but credibility isn't one of the reasons.

Mike, it's an action/adventure show.  C'mon.  If you're going to question everything about it, down to how people can get to and from CTU in under 15 minutes (I live in the Valley and can get to and from downtown LA in 15 minutes flat between 10 PM and 6 AM), then knock yourself out.  Don't know how you can enjoy it when you do, but there you go. 

BTW, 1) it was 2 - 3 AM last night.  When the kid committed suicide, it was much earlier.  Hospitals in general go on short staff that late and CTU isn't a hospital.  2) No one knew that Marwan knew about the computer at the girlfriend's house.  What? CTU should have sent a contingent of 20 armed men with Chloe? 3) Jack listened to the SS guys because if he didn't, they would have blown his cover.  That one did anyway is beside the point.  He was following orders and would never, under any circumstances, have killed Secret Service men just doing their jobs.  Sorry, but if you believe that then you don't understand Jack.  Finally, 4)  I know a ton of people in jobs just like Chloe and Edgar who are better at interacting with computers than they are with people.  That's stretching really far to say their employment at CTU isn't credible.  In fact, I find it extremely credible as I know people just like them in similar jobs.

Having just watched Hard Target again for the first time in a long time, I now know who Marwan is working for. Lance Hendrickson! This isn't terrorism -- it's just The Most Dangerous Game on a global scale.

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that John Sunlight is behind it all and that the Rock is going to show up as Doc Savage in Hour 23 for a critical save. Or next episode for a critical save of Paul. Doc was a great surgeon.

No, I'm not serious. I wish Edgar and Chloe would go on a date already.

Cheers, Jon