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Stephen Churay
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8369
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| Posted: 16 February 2018 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | 1
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In the last year, I worked to recollect titles and
stories that I feel are important to me.DOOM PATROL, TRIO
and TRIPLE HELIX were a definite part of that.
My nine year old son just read TRIO and loved it.
It has occurred to me that these books contain a tone
that most books do not and did not carry at the time. You
can throw Generations and BATMAN/CAPTAIN AMERICA in with
those. These books seem to push back against the aging
fanboy tide and it's want for more "adult" stories.
Remembering the reviews on these titles, I don't think
the fanboys or their websites got it. I, as well as
others here, were thankful to have well written all ages
material again.
Thank you for the work put into these books. Each issue
gives me and now my son reading entertainment that we now
talk about. As a Godzilla fan, he loves the Image of the
giant monster in the heart of the city.
It seems like the rest of the fan of readers, are
starting to understand the damage done with many of the
books written for their aging fan needs. Its my hope that
obe day these books You've crafted, will be seen in a
different light and find a new crip of readers.
Thanks
Edited by Stephen Churay on 16 February 2018 at 3:44pm
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4496
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| Posted: 16 February 2018 at 6:40pm | IP Logged | 2
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There was a real strange push to make comics for 'adults' starting in the early '70s (if not a little before), around when Denny O'Neil was writing about race relations and drug addictions with Neal Adams drawn Green Lantern, Green Arrow and Black Canary.I think that and a few other things were very influential on other writers and artists, and not because they necessarily sold a ton. Generally I too think, and Mr. O'Neil has said, that these sorts of subjects might not be the best fit for costumed character melodrama. I think he was trying to communicate about things important to him at that time. I talked to him once in the mid '80s and he seemed to say maybe it was something of a mistake in retrospect because of the influence it had had, although he was very proud of Frank Miller's Daredevil books he'd edited 'dealing' with violence. We only talked for maybe an hour. I probably said something about war comics such as E.C. and Robert Kanigher versus what Marvel was putting out with the toy tie-in G.I.Joe. He handed me his business card with Spider-man on it and it wasn't long after I heard he'd left Marvel, so I wondered about that!
I've followed some British soaps for years, and as with superhero comics, they too have broken some long-time characters with stories meant to grab ratings, sensationalist type stuff. They get big ratings (read sales) briefly, but the long-term effect is lasting damage because you can't sustain things after going that far out there when inevitably you have to go back or undo those sensationalistic (read historical) events.
It was X-Men: The Hidden Years that got me back, after a long absense from following any 'super' comics. John Byrne I thought was the toppermost of the poppermost about when i stopped going into comic shops as he was doing Superman: Man Of Steel. It's news to me if his kinds of comics fell out of favour at all, but I did see how the muscles got Don Simpson or Wonder Warthog extreme on the men, and the women became helium-boobed with broken backs a lot more.
I wouldn't say you can't have death in superhero comics, but it's kind of proof that there's a problem where they have to keep going back and un-deading certain characters. It really bothered me when Supergirl was killed to sell some extra copies for a couple months. I'm sure there were 'collectors' who bought long-boxes of a thousand of that 'historic' issue, but they are no doubt all thousand still in storage unread somewhere. This is who they replaced real readers with. Readers (read kids perhaps) are the backbone of any chance of the medium being a mass-medium.
Before I left/fled/found other things, I had read Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns four issue thing. The only problem I had and maybe still have with it is that it was using Batman. Using in every sense of the word. I thought, how do they go back from that as they inevitably will have to? Bat-tanks rolling over lumps of people like a premonition of that square in Beijing? It was monsterous... because it was supposedly Batman. Watchmen was set-up to use all the Charlton characters DC had gotten, but I am so glad they altered them enough, like Star wars altered an idea for a new Flash Gordon movie originally. I think Watchmen stands up much better (although Dave Gibbons art is so clean and kids comicy it isn't entirely comfortable either). That is about as superheroes for adults as you can really get... there is in a way no where to go beyond that, it's a dead end street. Not necessarily wrong, Denny O'Neil was not wrong to write about real issues in his 'groundbreaking' super-people comics, but somehow not sustainable, not what the form was created for, and as we all know, these things, these characters were created for children (including the inner child I guess).
I got from John Byrne's comics that there was a humanity to his art, even the technology in it's semi-organic Vaughn Bode-ness. I think older readers got this from Curt Swan maybe, Steve Ditko, Neal Adams (his art certainly had presence anyway), and Jack Kirby in a rough-edged way.
I hope i haven't intruded at all, Stephen... I appreciated what you wrote here and in the dead superheroines thread.
Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 16 February 2018 at 6:41pm
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Warren Scott
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 July 2016
Posts: 201
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| Posted: 17 February 2018 at 9:36am | IP Logged | 3
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I tend to agree with you, Rebecca. Addressing a real-life issue (say, the hungry in Africa, for example)can be a jarring reminder you're reading about characters who aren't real life (Couldn't Superman solve that problem or at least spend more time addressing it?).
On the other hand, the Spider-Man issues with Harry Osborn on drugs seemed to pull it off.
Possibly the best approach is to address issues within the context of a series. Some Carl Barks Uncle Scrooge and Groo stories have done that. Star Trek often did it.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132234
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| Posted: 17 February 2018 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 4
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Well, thanks for the thought, but I feel at times like King Canute trying to hold back the tide!
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Michael Hogan
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2052
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| Posted: 17 February 2018 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 5
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Okay, I admit, I had to go look up "King Canute." One of te things I love
about the Forum is the neverending litany of facts I learn!
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Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017
Posts: 1717
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| Posted: 17 February 2018 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | 6
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I don't think Superman could solve every major problem on Earth without breaking innumerable laws, which he's not prepared to do.
He could use his powers to slow down (probably not eliminate) global warming. I think that's really about it. Maybe he could become a "one-man army" for the UN to prevent genocide in certain countries, but then he'd be doing that all the time and would have to leave fighting super-villains to everyone else in the Justice League, etc.
These people don't exist in the real world, and if we put them into a world that's exactly like ours then things become far too complicated -- especially when the characters exist in a more-or-less "timeless limbo."
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 18 February 2018 at 9:26am | IP Logged | 7
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Superman could solve every weather crisis on Earth. He could resolve every hostage instantly. He could address every forest fire, stop every tidal wave, counter every volcano. He could resolve every kidnapping. He could remedy every shooting by destroying every unnecessary gun on Earth (military and police excepted.) He could get rid of every nuclear weapon (and I know we all remember "The Quest For Plot- that is, Peace"). He could build housing for the homeless (or even better, refurbish every abandoned building to make them all habitable.) He could distribute food (that's destroyed crops) to anyone in hunger. He might even be able to resolve pollution issues.
Compare such a world to the real one. Who would want to read such a book? Shucks, publishers knew during World War II that super heroes could support war efforts with patriotic stories and covers... but actually having any action taken would demoralize real soldiers and set up unrealistic expectations in the citizenry.. and worst, what if the Allied forces lost? (Remember, there was no surety that the Axis would lose!)
Comic books should separate themselves from affecting real world events. This is a specific genre, and that must include staying away from controversial topics. Do we really need to worry about opiod addiction or Syrian refugees when the Joker is trying to terrorize Gotham City, or the Grim Reaper is gunning for the Avengers again?
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4496
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| Posted: 18 February 2018 at 1:51pm | IP Logged | 8
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I like the core concept of Superman (and Supergirl) as alien, not human.They often didn't think to play on that. I also liked when he more leaped over tall buildings because he was from a different kind of gravity/sun world. It could look like flying to us but I don't think it ever should have become actual flying, especially where they had them just hanging in space. But that's my own preference and the train would've left the station on that permanently while Siegel and Shuster were still doing it I'd imagine. Batman's costume originally was to strike terror into baddies and that got left behind, especially in the '50s (Batman O' The Glen has a Bat Castle??? No!). Also the Joker killed people, they were left with a big grin on them and a whitened pallor.
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"Compare such a world to the real one. Who would want to read such a book? Shucks, publishers knew during World War II that super heroes could support war efforts with patriotic stories and covers... but actually having any action taken would demoralize real soldiers and set up unrealistic expectations in the citizenry.. and worst, what if the Allied forces lost? (Remember, there was no surety that the Axis would lose!)"
Great point!
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Brian O'Neill
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 November 2013
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18 February 2018 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | 9
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I liked the more 'smart alec' characterization of Superman in his first few stories, wisecracking as he drags a criminal along, running over electric wires('Of course we won't get electrocuted, birds do this all the time!'),and basically having a Popeye-like bravado to go along with his strength. He 'grew up' a little too quickly after that, although the later 'Earth-2' appearances of the character retained a little of that cockiness.
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Adam Schulman
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| Posted: 18 February 2018 at 7:49pm | IP Logged | 10
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Superman could solve every weather crisis on Earth. He could resolve every hostage instantly. He could address every forest fire, stop every tidal wave, counter every volcano. He could resolve every kidnapping. He could remedy every shooting by destroying every unnecessary gun on Earth (military and police excepted.) He could get rid of every nuclear weapon (and I know we all remember "The Quest For Plot- that is, Peace"). He could build housing for the homeless (or even better, refurbish every abandoned building to make them all habitable.) He could distribute food (that's destroyed crops) to anyone in hunger. He might even be able to resolve pollution issues.
***
Maybe the virtually-omnipotent Silver Age Superman could do all that. Not the current iteration. Some of these he could do but it would take a fair amount of time.
Superman plus both Flashes plus Green Lanterns, on the other hand...
And of course Zatanna could say "World, become perfect!" backwards and there you go. Bye-bye, DC Comics!
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Stephen Churay
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8369
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| Posted: 19 February 2018 at 11:29am | IP Logged | 11
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That would be scary. What if the spell
took the same route as Ultron to achieve
such perfection?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 19 February 2018 at 11:53am | IP Logged | 12
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It's the old "Most Beautiful Woman in the World" problem. By whose standards?If we "fix" the whole world, are we not at risk of making things worse? There was an episode of, of all things, I DREAM OF JEANNIE that addressed this. Tony was briefly given Jeannie's powers, and decided he would use them to cure all the ills of the world. But Jeannie cautioned him against attempting sweeping change. There were balances to be maintained. Irrigating the Sahara might very well cause a drought somewhere else.
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