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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7581
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Posted: 21 February 2018 at 6:37pm | IP Logged | 1
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Has nightwing ever displayed and serious detective skills?
——————— Who is Donna Troy. The original one
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 22 February 2018 at 10:44am | IP Logged | 2
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I didn't collect Nightwing comics, but I recall him using detective skills in various situations (and the other Titans wishing for his presence when he wasn't there to use them.)
I recall that Nightwing was a tribute to TWO super heroes... both Superman and Batman. I felt that he might have used some of the Kryptonian technology to step up his game... jet belt, laser, such of that nature. As long as you're modifying the character... you can give him a boost, right?
But I feel that Rule One applies here. Marv Wolfman wanted to show change in the Teen Titans, and he sure accomplished that... but why Robin/ There was nothing wrong with Robin that I think a couple of cosmetic changes to his costume couldn't have addressed. I'm thinking of Red Robin from "Kingdom Come"... that design would have been incredible, would have suite Robin perfectly, and wouldn't have lost his name or origin (and all that crap about changing membership of the Teen Titans. Honestly, I got tired of that REAL fast. "What happened to Robin?" "Where is the Teen Wonder?" "Who's this new clown?" etc. etc.)
Does Batman need a younger sidekick/partner? Well, it had worked for thirty years, and I think Mr. Byrne might allow that the basic premise could include a change to the character just one year in. And just as Batman continued to work with Robin while he was in the Justice League, Superman team-ups, B&B team-ups, etc., there is no reason that Robin couldn't have continued to partner with Batman while in the Titans.
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Charles Valderrama Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4716
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Posted: 22 February 2018 at 2:07pm | IP Logged | 3
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I believe the idea for Robin to become Nightwing was because he was living in Batman's shadow, following Batman's orders, and being the leader of the Teen Titans (ironically most of the team were in their 20's now) meant he had to become his own man. Still, they didn't want to leave Batman without a Robin, so Jason Todd was 'born'.
Personally, while I do believe in Rule One, I've enjoyed Dick Grayson's growth from Robin into Nightwing. (I'm torn I suppose.)
-C!
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4410
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Posted: 22 February 2018 at 2:20pm | IP Logged | 4
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I thought Nightwing and Flamebird were alter egos created for use in the bottle city of Kandor. I saw the names turned up as alter-egos for Powergirl and Supergirl in the "after 1 year" Supergirl series (volume 4? I lose count).
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7467
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Posted: 22 February 2018 at 2:52pm | IP Logged | 5
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You're correct-- the names were created as part of a Superman-and-Jimmy story set in Kandor. Dick Grayson used the Nightwing name knowing it had been used before; that said, Charles is correct on the motivations given Dick for ending his tenure as Robin.
For my money, DC never had to age-up its sidekicks, because that's landed them in the spot they're in today: the sidekicks basically couldn't have been the "kid partners" of the adult heroes without said adults now being on the verge of middle age (if not well into it).
Edited by Andrew Bitner on 22 February 2018 at 2:52pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132134
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Posted: 22 February 2018 at 2:59pm | IP Logged | 6
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Personally, while I do believe in Rule One, I've enjoyed Dick Grayson's growth from Robin into Nightwing. (I'm torn I suppose.)••• This is not "growth". This is arbitrary choices made by writers and editors (as are they all).
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 22 February 2018 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | 7
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Nightwing and Flamebird were identities adopted by Superman and Jimmy Olsen on a few adventures in Kandor... the Dynamic Duo of Kandor. When Dick Grayson chooses to change identities, he notes that his new identity is a tribute to Superman.
Once again, the question is raised of "Why do these characters have to have an age?" Are Robin or Wonder Girl much better characters if they're 22 instead of 18? And what's wrong with Dick Grayson staying Robin? Shucks, let's turn it around; Jason Todd's parents are killed by Killer Croc, Bruce Wayne adopts him, and then starts training him... "Jason, my first partner was Robin. We'll need another name for you. How do you feel about Nightwing? That name was used by a good friend of mine, who you'll be eventually meeting."
I understand reasoning for changing existing characters... but I believe Rule One is more important than that.
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Adam Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017 Posts: 1717
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Posted: 22 February 2018 at 4:38pm | IP Logged | 8
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The story as I've heard it:
The Batman writers and editors circa 1983 wanted to be able to "use" Robin in BATMAN and DETECTIVE COMICS at least some of the time. Marv Wolfman, then writing THE NEW TEEN TITANS, said "no, he's mine now, he's not going back to being Batman's sidekick."
So Gerry Conway created Jason Todd. (I think it was Conway.)
I'm very used to Dick being Nightwing but yes, it probably would've been better for Dick to just get an updated, improved costume and for Wolfman to not be so "possessive."
I say this despite liking Tim Drake a lot.
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4410
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Posted: 22 February 2018 at 6:04pm | IP Logged | 9
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I think the bottom line is DC sells merch with Robin on it, very little with Nightwing, so there is probably still going to be a Robin around no matter what. If Dick Grayson were still around in short pants people would still be saying 'hasn't he grown up at all', wheras they tend not to say it about a fully adult character like Daredevil or Aquaman.
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2280
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Posted: 22 February 2018 at 9:09pm | IP Logged | 10
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This all coincided with DC's post-CRISIS "legacy" thinking where writers replaced dozens of heroes and villains with new faces under the masks--blank slates they could do whatever they wanted with while giving the marketing department slightly altered costumes with established names that they could sell numerous toy lines of.
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 23 February 2018 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 11
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Eric J., you might have a point about post-Crisis legacy... although both Nightwing and Jason Todd were introduced pre-Crisis. Still... once the slate was "clean", I guess they felt free to go whatever direction they wanted, and editors didn't have an idea where the books were going, nor - most importantly - how the DC Universe was going to be interacting with itself.
In other words, not only did DC dump all the toys out of the sandbox, but they then tore the sandbox down.
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