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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 23 February 2018 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 1 post reply


 QUOTE:
Then, perhaps, you shouldn’t have brought them up?


 QUOTE:
Or led off with "possibly exaggerated"?

This was the first place I ever heard of these allegations, and I've been following the weekend news surrounding BLACK PANTHER pretty closely.

Greg, spreading unfounded crap is not promoting togetherness.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 23 February 2018 at 8:59am | IP Logged | 2 post reply


 QUOTE:
Regarding under representation of Hispanics in Hollywood, perhaps that has to do with the competing Mexican entertainment industry, which of course would draw Hispanic attention away from Hollywood.

Nope. For several years, it's been pointed out that Latinos make up 21-25% of the moviegoing audience, even though they are only 17% of the overall population.
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Adam Hutchinson
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Posted: 23 February 2018 at 9:00am | IP Logged | 3 post reply


 QUOTE:
Or led off with "possibly exaggerated"?


Or led with “These reports sound like alt-right conspiracy shit-stirring so
I won’t even mention it...”?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 23 February 2018 at 9:24am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Poking around online I found several sites purporting to show the percentage of various races and ethnicities represented in film and television. A general rule seemed to be that White actors took a bigger slice of the pie than in the population at large, while Black actors came in with about the same representation as found in the real world. So, again, it seems as if it is the other races and ethnicities that are getting squeezed.

(Interestingly enough, there seemed to be some indecision as to whether hispanics and latinos were their own group, or belonged in with the White slice. Obviously, inclusion inflated the White count considerably.)

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 23 February 2018 at 9:54am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I've been reading interviews with the creators of Netflix's new show EVERYTHING SUCKS. One of the things brought up is that the race of one of the lead characters, a black film nerd, and his mom are never really brought up and there's nothing about the character that is race-specific. But the creators, two white guys, worked with their actors to rewrite their dialogue so that they felt it was more authentic to their experience. 

I think in that area lies the difference between simply having black faces on screen and representation.
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David Miller
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Posted: 23 February 2018 at 11:38am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

David Simon from THE DEUCE talked about how it didn't occur to any of the men in the writer's room to give certain characters names besides FAT PROSTITUTE before they hired women writers who pointed it out. 
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 23 February 2018 at 12:07pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

This was the first place I ever heard of these allegations, and I've been following the weekend news surrounding BLACK PANTHER pretty closely.

Greg, spreading unfounded crap is not promoting togetherness.
+++++++++

Oh, come on, man. You’re way too eager to finger-wag. Like I said, I hadn’t done any serious research into the matter to confirm whether or not it was true. I’d read a few passing references to such events possibly having occurred, and the topic was also mentioned in passing to me in a recent conversation with a friend. That’s why I qualified my statement with “possibly exaggerated”, rather than presenting it as “fact”. Because I wasn’t sure how true or untrue the reports were.

I mentioned my awareness of the reports/rumors out there to see if anyone here would provide more accurate information as to their accuracy. Which Vinny did, by providing a “fact check” link. So, now I know. 

That’s hardly “spreading unfounded crap”. Take a chill pill!
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 23 February 2018 at 12:39pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply


 QUOTE:
Oh, come on, man. You’re way too eager to finger-wag. Like I said, I hadn’t done any serious research into the matter to confirm whether or not it was true.

And yet I was not the first or the second person to call you out on it. 


 QUOTE:
I mentioned my awareness of the reports/rumors out there to see if anyone here would provide more accurate information as to their accuracy.

That’s not how you phrased it:


 QUOTE:
Stuff like the infamous "women's only" WONDER WOMAN screening tends to worry me. Same with (possibly exaggerated) reports of White people being accosted at BLACK PANTHER screenings by people saying the movie "isn't for you".

There’s a world of difference between “possibly exaggerated” and “possibly untrue”. 


Edited by Michael Roberts on 23 February 2018 at 12:40pm
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 23 February 2018 at 1:12pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

And just so you don't misread my tone, Greg, I like you, think you are a nice guy, and believe that you are genuine in your desire for inclusiveness. But I think you really don't get how some of the things you post run counter to that.

Much of the praise toward BLACK PANTHER is geared toward the economy of Coogler's directing, the complexity of Michael B. Jordan's Killmonger, the visuals and cinematography, and yes, the representation of black and African people. But when you suggest that all the praise is due to the last one, you undermine everything else.

And do I really need to explain the psychology of presenting false information and the damage it can do, even when you acknowledge that the information might be false? Our current president builds his entire brand around that.

So don't read any this as an attack. I think if you could see some of your posts from an outside perspective, you'd see where you were being problematic.


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Matt Reed
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Posted: 23 February 2018 at 7:04pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

 Greg Kirkman wrote:
Not trying to downplay the positive aspects, mind you. I'm just saying that proclaiming it as "the greatest movie of all time" (as some have) is a bit much. Movies should still be judged as movies rather than by the color/gender of their cast and crew.

You're playing the hyperbole card here.  I haven't heard from anyone that this is "the greatest movie of all time".  Not critics.  Not fans.  Not laypeople.  No one.  I've just heard that it's a fantastic movie...which it is. To claim otherwise, to pump it up to 11 as you do does it a disservice. That's not what most are saying.  Not even close.

In the end, it's sad that it's taken how many years for a mainstream Hollywood film budgeted at $200 mil to feature a mainly African-America cast, have an African-American director and have a soundtrack from an African-American.  That's never happened before.  Ever.  And, yes, it's something that should be celebrated while realizing that there's still so far to go before celebrating it seems antiquated. 
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 23 February 2018 at 7:12pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

 Paul Greer wrote:
When you see a film with a predominantly 
black cast it is at best a comedy. But it is 
mostly a slave movie or something involving a 
criminal enterprise. To have a film that is 
high profile and with a blockbuster budget 
featuring an all black cast and crew is rare. 
Making them not slaves or drug dealers and 
pimps is even more rare.

Exactly.  Name the last film prior to BLACK PANTHER where the hero of the film was African-American.  If you can name one, try 50.  That's the struggle.  "They" get one, "we" get everything else.  And "they" should be happy about BLADE or THE COLOR PURPLE or 12 YEARS A SLAVE.  

This is THE FIRST MAINSTREAM MOVIE that a studio put $200 MILLION  behind that featured A PREDOMINANTLY all Black cast with a Black director.  The first.  Ever.  And this is 2018.  

Yes.  100% underrepresented.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 23 February 2018 at 7:26pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

 Greg Kirkman wrote:
Oh, come on, man. You’re way too eager to finger-wag. Like I said, I hadn’t done any serious research into the matter to confirm whether or not it was true. I’d read a few passing references to such events possibly having occurred, and the topic was also mentioned in passing to me in a recent conversation with a friend. That’s why I qualified my statement with “possibly exaggerated”, rather than presenting it as “fact”. Because I wasn’t sure how true or untrue the reports were.

Like Michael, you know I like you.  But this is unusual for you.  The erroneous reports about violence against white audience members watching BLACK PANTHER were rebutted nearly instantaneously.  They never happened and were, in fact, fake news drummed up by the worst of sites.  For someone that lives on every fact about STAR TREK and will research them all before forming an opinion, I find it disheartening that you'd even broach them here without doing at least a modicum of research on Google.  I don't think that speaks to your character, which I believe to be impeccable, but it does speak to a bias that you may not know you have.  Take that for what you will.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 23 February 2018 at 8:41pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

I think we (and by "we" I mean white America) take for granted what it means to see a hero in a film that looks like us.  We assume that everyone can identify with the white heroes we are bombarded with in movies and television.  But that's not the case. That's an easy out being, as I am (specifically) a white man. There is room for heroes of all stripes.  Stories about people across the spectrum.  But in most mainstream Hollywood films, those heroes tend to be white and male and straight with the belief that they stand for everyone. 

How powerful is it to finally have not just a character but a cast that represents you?  And that the story is universal not singularly African-American no matter the origins?  I think that's powerful because it's so rare.  And thus the notion of underrepresentation.  

At the end of the day, however, is BLACK PANTHER a good movie?  Strip it of the racial discussion, does it stand as a film?  I think so. Absolutely.  And that's what makes it a fantastic piece of cinema.  Devoid of a racial discussion, it's still a fantastic movie.  It doesn't live or die on race any more than CAPTAIN AMERICA, SPIDER-MAN: HOMECOMING, or ANT-MAN lives on race.  The underpinnings are there, absolutely, but BP is a hero regardless of race.  That doesn't define him.  He's a proud human.  We make the judgement about race. 
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David Miller
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Posted: 23 February 2018 at 10:31pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Speaking as someone who enjoys the Marvel movies very much, I think it's undeniable they've been egregiously over-hyped and over-praised since pretty much the beginning. Almost every MCU movie since AVENGERS has been called their best movie by somebody. It's churlish to arbitrarily demand a sense of perspective from fans who've enjoyed a particularly exciting movie-going experience thanks to personal identification, especially when the argument is whether BP is the best Marvel movie, or only the 8th best or whatever. Not everybody sees every one of these things.

It's like when I saw PAUL BLART MALL COP on an airplane, and was pleasantly surprised to see a heroic yet true-to-life portrayal of a Type 1 Diabetic on screen I could identify with, although I'm hopefully half KJ's size. It's undoubtedly my favorite Kevin James movie. Why should someone want to smack down my enjoyment by insisting it's really only the 5th best Kevin James Happy Madison feature? Nobody gives a shit about our ridiculous fanboy distinctions, so don't be a spoilsport.


Edited by David Miller on 23 February 2018 at 10:32pm
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 12:04am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

 David Miller wrote:
Almost every MCU movie since AVENGERS has been called their best movie by somebody.

I have no problem with someone thinking ANT-MAN is the best Marvel movie.  I may disagree (which I do) but that's their opinion.  That's different from saying it's "the greatest movie of all time" which is what Greg asserts some have said about BLACK PANTHER.  I've neither read that nor heard that from anyone...and I read a ton on the internet.  Although I'm not discounting the fact that he may have heard that from a certain corner that I haven't visited, I find it suspect at best to form an argument based on an incredibly small subset which may really be a single person making that claim. 
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David Miller
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 12:33am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

I can't back it up with a source, but I think I've read at least some "one of the greatest movies of all time" comments. However I think "you guys X isn't the greatest of all time" is nerd shorthand for overrated, as opposed to a rebuttal of specific literal praise.

Besides, if there are people who think BP or WW are the literal best movies ever, maybe they're right? Both movies are head and shoulders above GONE WITH THE WIND.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 1:24am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

 Greg Kirkman wrote:
Black-led superhero films are nothing new, either. BLADE was very successful, spawned two sequels, and took a C-list character and made him famous. To say nothing (please!) of STEEL, THE METEOR MAN, BLANKMAN, SPAWN, etc. Unfortunately, the narrative being pushed now is that BLACK PANTHER is breaking all sorts of barriers which were already broken--with less fanfare--literally decades ago. I don't remember anyone batting an eye over Blade's race. He was just a cool character in a cool movie.

Seriously, Greg.  Seriously?  You're going to argue that STEEL, METEOR MAN, BLANKMAN and SPAWN are equivalent to anything in the MU.  Those are B and C list movies at best.  AT BEST.  Yet you're arguing those as having "broken the barrier" decades ago?  Really?  You only break a barrier when you become mainstream, when you cross all lines and all literal barriers to become a hit.  STEEL?  Are you serious?  METEOR MAN?  Are you shitting me?  BLANKMAN is an example of "breaking the barrier" and advancing the notion that POC can play to the mainstream?  Really?  You're sounding incredibly obtuse here, Greg.  
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 1:37am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Why should someone want to smack down my enjoyment by insisting it's really only the 5th best Kevin James Happy Madison feature?

------

Because! *initiating smackdown*

1) HERE COMES THE BOOM
2) ZOOKEEPER
3) I NOW PRONOUNCE YOU CHUCK & LARRY
4) GROWN UPS
5) PIXELS
6) GROWN UPS 2
7) PAUL BLART: MALL COP
11) PAUL BLART: MALL COP 2

Oh god, I've seen over half these movies. Whyyyyyyyyyyy?

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Matt Reed
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 1:39am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

STEEL - $16 mil budget. $1.7 mil domestic return.
THE METEOR MAN - Cheesy film no one remembers that came in ninth its opening weekend losing out to the fourth weekend of FREE WILLY. Final gross?  $8 mil.
BLANKMAN - Opened at 11th in 1994 behind the third week of the forgettable LITTLE RASCALS. Final gross?  $7.9 mil.
SPAWN - The only hit of the bunch insomuch as it ultimately grossed $87.8 mil worldwide against a $40 mil budget.  But it featured a lead character so horribly disfigured he could have been any race with a best friend that was race swapped for a white man because the studio didn't believe a solely Black film would sell.  
BLACK PANTHER - $235 mil after four days, beating the entire domestic run of JUSTICE LEAGUE in less than a week and becoming the fifth largest opening weekend of all time. 

You tell me which one "broke all the barriers".  
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 1:55am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

In all fairness, Greg, I will grant you BLADE.  That's the closest to BLACK PANTHER that we can agree upon. It made a buttload of money and spawned two sequels. But to ignore the positive aspects of BLACK PANTHER (strong male lead, family, pride in history, not to mention it's massive opening weekend) to say that African-Americans should be happy with BLADE feels...wrong.  We now know the history, right?  It took 20 years between BLADE and BLACK PANTHER.  So how many barriers did it break, exactly?  None, I'd say. It isn't "old hat" nor did it actually do anything to move African-Americans into the mainstream at least as far as film is concerned. 
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 2:11am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

 Michael Roberts wrote:
Oh god, I've seen over half these movies. Whyyyyyyyyyyy?

Of the 8 movies you mentioned, I've seen...zero.  None.  Nada.  Zip.  
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 2:19am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Of the 8 movies you mentioned, I've seen...zero.  None.  Nada.  Zip.  

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You are blessed.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 2:50am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Regarding BLADE and with all due respect to Wesley Snipes, if BLADE had been raceswapped to a white character, could the same story have been told? I honestly ask because I don't think I've seen any of the BLADE films.

BLACK PANTHER told a story from black American and African perspectives (while still having universal themes and universal appeal.) Representation is more than having characters that look like you. It also includes showing POVs that the majority would otherwise not see or consider.
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 2:55am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Agreed.  And yes, I believe that you could have told the BLADE story with a white man or an asian man or a hispanic man and it would have been the same story.  His being African-American didn't inform the character. It certainly doesn't inform the character like it does with BLACK PANTHER.  T'challa has to be Black.  It's who he is.  Blade?  At least insomuch as the movies are concerned, not so much. 
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Fabrice Renault
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 2:57am | IP Logged | 25 post reply


Does Rotten Tomatoes count, because this article's title claims it :
http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/black-panther-crowned-gre atest-film-time-rotten-tomatoes/
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